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Some thougths regarding TAK

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by MATRAKA14, Sep 2, 2021.

  1. Moxie

    Moxie Well-Known Member

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    I would mirror what Tanan is saying. Originally on paper I hated the t2 strelok but every now and then I make lists to challenge my preconceived notions and t2 strelok has been a all star in each game I have brought him.

    He is hard to justify sometimes since TAK has so many wonderful pieces but I have found it a piece that's a lot easier to use thanks to starting in the midfield along with a gun that rewards surprise shots.

    Feels like a combination of a scout and a tank hunter.
     
    Tanan likes this.
  2. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Mathematically speaking, Strelok T2 marksmanrifle is slightly better at putting ARM3 W2 PH12 (with or without mimetism) to unconscious than Spetsnaz HMG.
     
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  3. holycannoli

    holycannoli Dancing to Kazak Kalinka

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    Play against anyone running Caledonia and you'll quickly learn what hitting mid priced t2 feels like. On the strelok you're going to be relying on surprise shot and positioning to make up for bs11. But when you do you can turn some rather valuable characters into chunky salsa and immediately make back your points.

    T2 is a cheap way to ruin days. Honestly there's a reason people think the ammo type should cost swc. It's there for cheap models to kill expensive ones. And is the reason why in higher level play medics are relegated to the dust bin.

    Heavy infantry armies weep at t2, and many sectoral are not ready to take on camo tokens packing it.
     
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  4. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    29 points is a ridiculous price to invest into something that MAYBE can help you when you get an opportunity to hit an unlinked 2-3 wound piece that has no visual mods. I'd rather always take FO scout that can outrange things with 32" effective range and push buttons...

    Parachutist Spetsnaz costs 30 points and thats a unit that can wreck a lot of things
     
    #24 fatherboxx, Oct 8, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
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  5. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, T2's utility is invariably linked to the Weapon it's attached to. A t2 Rifle is functionally the same as a shock Rifle against light infantry as it just kills 1w stuff dead. Against heavy Infantry, rifles aren't that scary if you're getting arm4 plus cover and you stand reasonable odds of doing well or winning the face to face roll. A t2 sniper is a bit of a different kettle of fish however and a t2 Shotgun in +6 band is tasty too
     
  6. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Went to first ITS 13 local tourney as TAK, got third place, second went to another TAK player that we were tied with at TP and OP.
    Missions were Unmasking (vs Tohaa - win), Frostbyte (HB - loss) and Power Pack (Phalanx - win)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Did you know that you can build Frontovik core with two 112s? Now you know! Of course it is weird and seemingly suboptimal, but I was always limited by not being able to take my fav Frontovik HRL in a default kazak team (except as a 6th piece to reform when sniper dies) and here I could. Also having templates on cheaper link pieces is great, I dont think I could've traded with Taqeul that barricaded in a building as effective. Shame that its a weak imitation of Jaguar/Varangian/Ghulam superpower room cleaners but hey triple template shotgun is a triple template.

    Thanks to Blizzard and Power Pack sat zones Tankhunter ML is still good provided the table has enough firelanes.

    Dynamo are crazy good now. I used Dynamo and free Red Fury MBH working together (set mine dispenser drops on a group of units, then send in red fury to trigger) - they are gas. Even in reactive you can set up Dynamo after initial assault on the same lane as Frontovik and shoot smoke while benefitting from cover and mimetism to provide sniper with a massive -6 zone - if opponent lost his msv pieces, that can lock things up.

    More than ever I feel uncomfortable doing lists witjout K9 Strelok because it is a perfect counter to Impersonators and Andromeda/Uxia
     
    Lawson likes this.
  7. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @fatherboxx No dogos or antipode pack? Treason!

    Also while I agree that tankhunter ML is good, I it’s hard to justify it compared to Line Kazak ML+Journalist since you aren’t running 15 orders. You could also swap Kazak doctor to paramedic because no one has cubes.
     
  8. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    I was actually once again validated there taking doctor instead of paramedic because my veteran was critted by warcor and doctor removed his stun state.

    Line ML and tankhunter are not really comparable because they cover different flanks (tankhunter for one without fireteam) and camo taxes opponent on at least one order to discover
     
    #28 fatherboxx, Oct 10, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  9. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Normally true, but you don’t have 15 slots. Taking Line Kazak ML+journo costs less than Tank hunter and will take atleast two Orders to kill and and provides two orders.
     
  10. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    thats just +1 irregular order and my lists usually have more than enough to feed into command tokens

    there is a game outside of army builder and in that a camo that limits fireteam movement (and farms easy wins vs bad/tired players if you get paired that way) is worth more than just a basic dude with a ML that will never win in a FTF

    I'd believe more in kuryer mul at that point if there is a reasoning to just take a ML to tax on 1 order
     
    #30 fatherboxx, Oct 10, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  11. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    I 100% agree with you on the ML tankhunter. Having that camo token on the opposite flank can be quite valuable and had been a game saver for me on more than one occasion. I, like you, also run Vassily. Coordinating the two of them can be a pretty substantial punch. I normally run the two of them and two Irmadhinos in my second group. Makes for a nice little team and enough orders to power the Irmadhinos, or with command tokens power the tankhunter or Vassily if needed.

    I also don’t have much use for the Antipode packs. I’m not saying they aren’t good, but they are cumbersome and the prevelance of template weapons makes it hard, at least for me, to charge them into CC effectively. I’ve gotten good results using K9 Strelok and a Dog Warrior.
     
  12. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Due to superjump they are anything but cumbersome. They just aren’t good at assaulting, at least not in a traditional sense. The non-spearhead antipode ties enemy key models into melee by ARO-bait Dodges or camouflage. Next turn enemy is forced to spend a lot of inefficient orders to kill the antipode. Last game I killed a TAG in reactive turn using this trick.

    They should be renamed “Antipode reactive turn pack” so that people use them correctly.
     
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  13. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    For sure. Like I said though, just not my personal style. I know they work really well for some people.
     
  14. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    I'm struggling to visualise what you mean with this, could you walk me through it?
     
  15. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but have to warn you that it’s somewhat complicated and you have to keep in mind that the rules at the moment are rubbish because CB doesn’t know how to write antipode pack rules in any edition. Also your TO might have different view how AROs work post faq 1.1.1 because no one really knows how AROs should work at the moment.

    The biggest hurdle in antipode use is determining what happens if spearhead dies or goes unc. The rules don’t tell what happens in this situation. But let’s assume that unc spearhead triggers disconnected. -> Everything has to be done with non-spearhead antipode and the spearhead antipode should be well behind the lead non-spearhead antipode.

    Getting into close combat:
    When enemy declares delay ARO, the enemy trooper has to declare the target -> the not-targeted antipode moves into melee with enemy trooper using 2nd skill. The target in melee can’t ARO with BS attacks, so it’s trivial to kill him using a new order if it can’t fight in CC like most TAGs can’t.

    Dodge ARO baiting:
    - Multiple enemies behind corner over 4” away. Antipodes are in camo. -> Antipodes declare dodge, which breaks camo and enemies are ARO baited to declare PH-3 dodges (even with 6th sense). Antipodes move into view using 2nd skill. -> Everyone rolls Dodges and Antipodes move into melee with those enemies that fail their dodges. If enemy is close enough you can also CC instead of dodging, but this is usually a bad idea because then your brave spearhead antipode is dangerously close to the enemy.

    Antipodes in reactive turn:
    - Non-spearhead antipodes can CC ARO normally. Ideally you want to be in cover and in melee at the same time to give that -12 to hit to any enemies who want to save their friend. Keep in mind that direct templates can’t be used against engaged enemies, engaged antipode can Dodge ARO (without leaving CC) against any attacks in ZoC with PH-3 and any BS attacks that miss the engaged antipode (because of -12 to hit and/or Dodge Roll) hit the enemy trooper.
     
    #35 Tanan, Oct 11, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
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  16. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    This is no longer true after the FAQ was released shortly after N4 dropped and was never the intention. The ARO models can declare any ARO, not just the dodge -3. Therefore they could declare BS Attack, which would be a valid ARO at the resolution phase.
     
  17. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @McKaptain like I said before no-one really knows how AROs work at the moment and it's a kinda funny.

    However, I would to say that most people currently perhaps play so that only illegal BS attack declarations that are allowed are vs ZVZ and backside (and backside case requires 6th sense). You should definitely check with your TO or opponent on how AROs work before every game. You know, standard infinity procedure.

    This "convention" ofc has a side effect of making CC and Dodge ZoC ARO-baiting very powerful.
     
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  18. RasPuto

    RasPuto Well-Known Member

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    How do you counter those? I'm sincerely curious, no criticism here.
     
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  19. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    I’m not positive on how it’s great against andromeda, other than it has forward deployment and camo.
     
    #39 McKaptain, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
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  20. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    If you go second, keep in reserve, place 3 markers around it.
    Impersonator cant freely move out of it (no contact with enemy markers allowed), Andromeda will instantly eat a template and a hammer before she gets to her usual business
    Wont work that well if opponent rolls WIP on Impersonator and deploys behind your vet kazak (they just template though you) but people usually dont risk it since placing on the edge of DZ is usually enough with the enormous threat range of impersonators
     
    #40 fatherboxx, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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