1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Consensus on Hacking

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by D_acolyte, Sep 17, 2021.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,025
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    Been saying for a long time that 400 points is the place to be. Everyone has access to all the tools and it becomes a choice of which tools to prioritize, which to remove etc. I could win a game in 300 because my opponent lacked MSV, but at 400 I could only win that same game if I actively took out the MSV they would definitely have access to in their list.

    Are you guys sticking to 15 model cap under 400? Thats the only part I'm unsure of
     
  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Yes we are, it is still a standard set by the rules. Besides it doesn't effect any army adversely that wasn't already getting screwed by the cap (though funnily enough CHA got better).

    But yes at 300 you get to have all the tools needed meaning you don't get screwed by a gear check and you you get to have back up threats and other forms of good redundancy, unlike 300 where there is like one or two good gunners or a handful of specialists that means you can get locked out of the game thanks to a sufficiently hard alpha, that is less of a concern at 400.
     
    Mahtamori and SpectralOwl like this.
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Except some armies (like Ariadna and its sectorials) which can't even make 15 order armies at that points value.
     
  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Incorrect, Vanilla is fine and the only sectorials screwed by it are USARF and MRRF (no great loss), and the only tools that are lacking are the tools unavailable to the army as a whole (MSV2, Hacking etc.) which are deliberate design handicaps which are known going in to the faction.

    Vanilla, TAK, Kosmo and CHA can make good, interesting and effective lists within the 15 slot framework. Vanilla, because it has everything and 14 camo markers + bear are an effective list archetype. Tak, because it is basically vanilla with the trash removed and access to fireteams. Kosmoscott, because it was designed with N4 in mind. CHA, because at 400 you can build an effective camo shell with actual teeth in it thanks to the SWC increase and back it up with a couple of dogs and other elements.
     
  5. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    1,991
    Except that's not my claim, and I already addressed it in the actually relevant part of the post you quoted, except you ignored it in favour of aggressive, point missing (and incorrect) semantics.

    Would Morans be auto includes in a faction that sucked at hacking? I don't think they would.

    So it's not that you're taking Morans anyway. It's that the Morans and the good hackers in the faction work synergistically together, so you take them together. Hence it makes sense to consider their total costs and benefits together as a system. Not ignore the cost of one because you bring them together. No matter how you dance around it, things have a cost and give you a benefit you can measure around that cost, and compare it to other things, and while that might have nuances we can disagree about, it is not irrelevant.

    Additionally - the conversation moved on from that to make a similar claim about EVOs with Vostoks. Which kind of highlights one of several problems with the thesis. It can be made about anything with a synergy. I don't see EVOs being auto includes in all Nomad lists regardless whether they have a Vostok or not though.

    Funny, I must have imagined the 15 Troop 400pt Ariadna list I played against this morning.
     
    #285 Hachiman Taro, Oct 10, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  6. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,025
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    If you fully read posts before you replied to them, you'd see that I mentioned an uncertainty regarding the 15 order cap a few lines later.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Of course we are, that's the rules of the game.

    @Hachiman Taro @Tourniquet There's even a lot of armies which are forced into basically monobuilds by 400 point lists. It ain't great.
     
  8. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    You say that like a lot of armies aren't already forced into mono builds at 300, including ariadna.
     
  9. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,891
    Likes Received:
    3,130
    I'd probably take Morans in most factions, actually. Lack of marker protection on the Repeater profile isn't great, but all profiles are Specialists including the great area-denying Shotgun ones, CrazyKoalas with Minelayer make defense a lot easier, they're cheaper than Zeroes and they synergise well with Marker State Hackers even in relatively weak Hacking Sectorials. Ariadna's about the only place I wouldn't want one or two in at least some list archetypes.
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    USARF mostly, and to a small extent French face this issue, and partially the dated nature of both sectorials needing an update to better fit N4's design and an expanded roster as they are the two smallest sectorials in the game IIRC.

    From experience outside of those two list variance improves for everyone else. On the whole it's an improvement for the state of the game IMO.


    The 15 model cap combined with 400 points actually helps more fringe profiles and units get off the bench. It becomes much easier to justify picking less hyper optimised profiles when you're searching for ways to upgrade and burn excess points when your combat groups are already full. I started playing the TR baggage bots because I found myself with ~13pts and nothing to spend it on besides upgrading a baggage bot. That's a profile that has never managed to make it to a table at 300pts in the years I've been playing this game.

    The other reason I think you should probably stick to 15 units is because the army sizes balloon like crazy. Even at 300pts some of my N3 lists when adjusted to N4 discounts were pushing past 25 units. 400pts without restriction you'd pretty regularly see people pushing into 3 combat groups which would bog the game down pretty hard.
     
    #290 Triumph, Oct 10, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    RolandTHTG, SpectralOwl and Zewrath like this.
  11. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    145
    18 Points and 0.5SWC for a Limited Camo Infiltration specialist minelayer with Koala is universaly good in 95% of list.

    People are still gravitating around the Moran with Repeater because they are still experimenting with Hacking. Wait for the moment people realize that between Moran and Zero Nomads can have a cheap Camo midfiled full of mine and Koala.
     
    #291 Spellbreaker90, Oct 10, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
    Zewrath and Mahtamori like this.
  12. Morray

    Morray Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    135
    Boys I'm playing CJC a lot right now and I don't field the Vostok, I'm actually struggling to fit him in. I do like the Haris that one of you mentioned - Vostok (-6) Brigada Hacker is -6Bot - Wildcat engineer. That's pretty great but wooooo 126 points 1 SWC 4 orders is a spicy Potato, and the boys at the back can't keep up with the fat man, but I guess that can be a skill thing...
    At this point I'd suggest two things, firstly accept the Vostok isn't the be all and end all in Nomads, and secondly, start making lists and putting them up to back up your points, because what you'll find once you include things like Vostoks, EVO's and engineers is that you quickly start running out of points and obvious holes start forming in your lists. Well for me it does any way.
     
  13. Morray

    Morray Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    135
    Like this? Screenshot 2021-10-19 at 01.50.20.png
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    @Morray you can save points by switching the wildcat for a clockmaker.

    The Vostok isn't the be all and end all, it's that it's combined with too much other good stuff.
     
  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    This what I've been running lately in testing for a tournament.


    Nov test 1
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    TSYKLON Feuerbach, Pitcher / PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 36)
    MOBILE BRIGADA (Lieutenant) MULTI Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
    EVADER (Engineer) AP Spitfire, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit, TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34)
    JAZZ FTO undefined / undefined. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] JAZZ FTO (Hacker, Number 2) Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermines / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 19)
    JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    VOSTOK FTO (Mimetism [-6]) Mk12(+1 Dam) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 44)
    WILDCAT (Engineer, Deactivator) Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    MOBILE BRIGADA (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 39)
    VERTIGO ZOND Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 17)
    CARLOTA KOWALSKY Breaker Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Adhesive Launcher(+1B), D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    HELLCAT Spitfire / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 30)
    McMURROUGH Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades, Smoke Grenades / AP + DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    SALYUT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
    MORAN (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun, Flash Pulse, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    MORAN (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun, Flash Pulse, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)

    8 SWC | 398 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    At 300 the Vostok didnt make my CJC lists to often as I just found other pieces better for other reasons (typically a second sombra), but jumping to 400 opens it up a lot.
     
  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    126pts for the primary assault element of a list with support (even at 300) isnt too far outside of the expected cost. the only one that has issue keeping up is the wildcat and that requires the user to be cognizant of their movement choices. additionally, not only is it your primary assault piece but has the ability to project many different kinds of threats and complete most of the classified deck and benefit from the majority of mission bonuses, so it also efficiently covers your scoring needs.
     
    Morray likes this.
  17. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Doesn't link in CJC, and a linkable engineer is really what makes it hum properly.
     
  18. Morray

    Morray Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    135
    That's so funny, I was looking at your list like...WTF, why can't I make a list like this...? Then realised it's 400 points! :joy: I'm such a rook. Yea so probably like me at 300 if you choose the vostok I find it makes your list steer into a certain way.
     
    Tourniquet likes this.
  19. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    1,991
    TBF I was looking at it too thinking, that's a pretty awesome list. Then I saw the pts haha.
     
    Tourniquet likes this.
  20. Morray

    Morray Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    135
    Do you boys find the Moran's an must-have for all lists that can have them? Not even just for the hacking but the Koala's the D-Charge use and infiltration...? I find them so useful.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation