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ITS 13 Bike Changes

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Kreslack, Oct 1, 2021.

  1. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    112 goes click.
     
  2. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Why? They are a business trying to make money. If they can make money by tweaking some fun rules for just one season, how is that bad? They need money to make more product, which benefits us too.
     
    chromedog, saint, wuji and 1 other person like this.
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    A less balanced game doesn't benefit us.
     
  4. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    While this is usually a good point we should take into account that bike's cannot go prone, the choosing cover means losing impetuous, and that mimetism is only applied while on the bike. Perhaps, this is, in a way not easily seen from some perspectives, an additional form of balanced play.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's a specious take. Mimetism and the ability to claim cover are both powerful on the table; if things are balanced with these changes, they were unbalanced before, and vice versa. One of them is wrong, basically.
     
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  6. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Well, considering nobody took bikes before, i think we can guess which one it was.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Desperados and Kuroshi saw play in my experience. And I had success with a USARF biker swarm in missions like Biotechvore.
     
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  8. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it is but alot of this for both of us and others is subjective. What isnt subjective is that bikes are a wide base that cannot go prone and up until just this past week, also could not take cover. Being wide, unable to take prone and coverless in the N4 tactical window meta means the bike should be bringing something significant. Which below I will point out as someone mentioned specific profiles of note.

    This would be my opinion as well because looking at standard Aragoto as JSA is my current favorite, I was not very interested in them. But now, a Biker Spitfire that can take cover and a cybermasked killer hacker on a bike look great, all because they can take cover. Other factions have opportunity costs to compare their Bikes to...

    Desperados at 6 points for a B5 Assault pistol and the rest of their unmentionables is pretty much a steal. Kuroshi, while not exactly Yojimbo, brings fast button pusher, an FO when needed, a 5 inch dodge on 13s and reasonable CC as well as reasonable guns and lastly smoke. As I said above, wasnt interested much in Aragoto, I think people who felt like their Bikes in the current meta werent competitive enough will feel a little different, especially if they were already canceling their impetuous order to prevent their bikes from being sniped.
     
    #28 wuji, Oct 5, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
  9. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    The 6pt Desperado has always been a steal. But I’d draw your attention to the 9pt submachine gun profile. For one command token and 36pts, you could drop four into suppression that in cover gives a -9 to hit and can shoot back through smoke using sixth sense with AP ammo.

    oooooof.
     
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  10. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I initially typed up alot, I mean alot, to explain they aren't OP but no longer bottom tier, it was mostly explaining the way I would a new player about soft countering. But , I realized USARF would have a problem with 4 Desperado in the N4 meta and decided to focus on that, 4 squishy irregular orders in a max 15 man roster makes you reconsider bringing any Frontiersman or Devil Dogs cause of opportunity costs. Devil Dogs counter camo shell games and Heavy Hitters while Frontiersmen allow for shell games but both are also irregular orders. Do players really wanna bring 4 irregular orders that take up S4 realestate, non template wielding, cant go prone and dont provide a strong ARO presence at the start in an era of increasing non defense is the question. I think the USARF player will be forced to choose Regular/SWC defense that will undoubtedly die, lose the bikes in an alpha strike if a non defense is presented or risk having too many irregular orders by trying to defend with Dogs and shell game.

    The opportunity cost for bringing 4 desperados is too high. These bike changes bring list variety and some factions that were low tier more up to the mid tier making a tighter meta which is a good thing and pushes the slogan, Get Good ;P
     
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  11. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    So much for "all maps will be Antarctic". While Tactical Ride (non impetuous bike, bike with cover, mimetism, total terrain) and Long Service (Characters are Vet Troop) are core ITS 13 rules, Antarctic Map is only found in few missions, like Frontline and 5 other.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Wow, how incredibly inane.
     
  13. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    It's pretty obvious I was joking with the get good statement and describing that bikes getting a bump will increase list variety while also showing there isnt anything OP about bringing 4 Desperados is the point.
     
  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    So I can safely assume that stops now?
     
  15. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    A lot of this has to do with expensive bikes which won't get much better, and cheap warbands that no longer can be taken in large enough numbers due to 15 unit cap.
     
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  16. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    You're hitting it right on the head. And that's exactly why I think it's balanced. Is balance artificial due to the unit cap, yes, but that applies to lots of spammable units, not just bikes or more specifically Desperados. Plus, keeps the skirmish in the game.

    I think the most important question is whether everyone is equally competitive, not how they got there. USARF was behind, now they're more caught up. Everyone else has enough or higher Mimetism/MSV/BS/CC/ARM/W/STR/BTS skills, weapons and equipment as well as well packaged troops that interfere with their unit cap less.

    I think everyone will be alright.
     
  17. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it hits everyone equally. It massively benefits the cheap bikes that didn't already have those things more than the ones that did. The cheap ones were still used more (disposable rushers, smoke deployment, etc.).

    USARF might be better, but that's no good if the only reason it's doing well is the bikes. It makes other choices within the faction invalid, which is poor design.
     
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  18. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right about almost all of it. Unfortunately I'm convinced that no matter what I say what is really necessary is people just play and find out.
     
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  19. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    My 2 cents from TAK point of view:
    - Mounted 112: Still bad compared to other options
    - Carmen & Batard: Batard getting cover is nice, but it’s a tough battle in the 20pt bracket.
    - Dynamos: Now we are talking! Mimetism, cover and impetuous during active turn (Fireteam: Duo removes impetuous during reactive turn, so you can have your cake and eat it). All profiles will be useful, but SMG profile probably the best in most situations due to shock ammunition and panzerfaust.
     
  20. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    I have the same opinion. Good design is not only mesured with W/L ratios. And many amries are in dire need of a proper deep redesign.
     
    Mogra likes this.
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