You tried to side step them I think, but you didn't address them. Orders are a significant opportunity cost to anyone being reasonable. Dismissing that doesn't make it different. And saying 'where it would do the most good' is not actually specifying where that would be outside possibly one AD troop choice that might benefit (among other good ones that don't need it) and other REMs you imagine but don't specify. You haven't exactly made the generalized case "EVO hackers are so useful in N4 that it isn't much of an opportunity cost" with specifics.
Nah, I did. Your faction bias is showing. Again, the Mimetism -6 profile for the Vostok shouldn't exist.
I couldn't really care less if it exists or not tbh. I don't really use it bc I don't really think it's that great other than maybe on paper, or that necessary either.
2 orders from group 2 that generally aren't really doing anything isn't really that much of a cost. Then it refills disposable equipment, gets the baggage bonus in relevant missions, hail mary button pusher in the late game. Or you need to rework the list to remove it or add other stuff as it only has one synergy/application and that isn't a great investment in points. As for other REMs in lists the Tsyklon (which also benefits from getting reloaded) and TR bots make appearances. Yes, because you stick the unarmed piece out in the open to stare down the world as opposed to sticking in a back corner or on a roof somewhere where its relatively safe behind everything else in your army. I personally dont rate the vostok attached to a full core, especially some shitty line infantry core that just hemorrhages bonuses and resources the second it goes anywhere (shit concept this edition anyway, thanks shotguns), where they both work (especially the vostok) really well in my experience is in a more mobile haris with a pair of good complimentary models. Also are you playing on wide open tables where you can't maneuver into a position to leverage it? Again I agree there is more nuance here (like hiding the defenseless model instead of having stand out and get shot, like an idiot), namely in the greater context of a full list where those kinds of pieces play into other list synergies (like the ones mentioned previously). Also still trying to work out how it some how magically turns bad when the model hits the table and is somehow unusable, because that really hasn't been my experience, and when utilized well can be fairly oppressive. But it isn't the be all end all that some others are saying it is, while it often edges out a lot of the other dedicated gunfighting platforms, it doesn't prevent you from also taking those to use as redundant gunners, for in the event of it getting taken down or to clear something that has it pinned or to just exert force in a different area of the table. Unless you are referring to tournament play in which case theres a few things there that may be holding things up, such as current global events, and a lot of the new nomad stuff only now just starting to roll out as physical models.
My point being yes if you take it purely for the one singular purpose of supporting the vostok without taking anything else that would benefit from having it around (which you need to go out of your way to do), then yes it has opportunity cost. But more often than not there are other list elements which nullify that.
Yeah, exactly I don't actually disagree with many of @Tourniquet's core points. I don't hate the Vostok or think it's bad. It's good at what it does - just not my kind of thing or so strong it has to be taken to play competitively or ruins anything. I'm relatively ambivalent about it tbh. I'm just pointing out that the argument being made above that 'wildcarding into dirt cheap links at which point it starts utterly ruining internal faction balance' where apparently there 'isn't much of an opportunity cost' for the EVO so it's points don't count in a comparison seems probably only true for people who's experience of using it is just entering it into a dice calculator with every synergy accounted for and no limitations or costs - i.e., limited idea how it actually plays, or maybe someone getting dunked on by an opponent who plays it better than they play their own things Stuff like hiding your EVO is all well and good. But the game isn't binary like that. It's not the EVO is either left out to get shot like an idiot, or invulnerable hidden in your backfield, with no nuance in between. It's more like, the more big S4 bases you take, the more likely you are to run out of good places to put them in some deployment zones, and that can start to be awkward to deploy well. Especially if you want your Vostok in a 'dirt cheap' (read; squishy) core Link, and a Tsyklon, and an EVO near the Tsyklon (to reload it), and now maybe some bikers as well (and a Hellcat that probably also would like those group 2 orders you suppose 'generally aren't really doing anything'). To pretend that isn't an actual downside is to act like we play on paper, but we don't. Same with writing off group 2 orders as not worth much either. I dunno about other people, but I'm trying to maximize them all, not minimise them.
A sizeable amount of the time (speaking from Haris experience with typically a HI with tinbot attached and something else) it actually plays like it does as discussed (hence the points I make) and on paper. But other peoples experience, ability and metas may vary their outcomes in this regard. I agree with the second half of this statement (in about 2/3 of the sectorials, cjc can take it or leave it without really caring) not the first, I believe the dirt cheap link of 4 basic LI + Vostok is a trap and wholly ineffective (as the current dtw spam nature of the game just shreds them) and you are better off minimizing to a haris with some relevant and more durable support pieces. For example; CJC - Vostok, Brigada hacker with tinbot and Wildcat engineer BJC - Vostok, RG BSG with tinbot, then either clockmaker, wolfgang, or another RG depending on mission, this haris comes out to the same cost as it's direct competitor of a kusanagi haris and is more effective). TJC Vostok, Hollowman hacker with tinbot, and HM with multi rifle and pitcher. It is cheaper, more mobile and more effective than if the Kriza was in the team instead, also included army efficiency in removing the need for a doctor allowing you to consolidate in an engineer for support duty, the HM MR+P occasionally gets swapped out for percy, jelena or wolfgang depending on needs. there is an important piece of nuance that is being missed here, there are often more valuable targets in that area that are a higher priority and can be dealt with far easier than a prone EVO on a roof in a corner, and if they have managed to intrude that far into your DZ whether conventionally or via AD methods, you have bigger concerns than your EVO getting punked. at no point did I say it was invulnerable, just that it can difficult or order intensive to reach (which if it takes them 3-4+ orders to get to it and kill it that's okay with me as it means they gutting the core or head hunting an LT), or there are just better things to be killing. Though funnily enough an EVO is the only thing that cares about an enemy KHD platform tagging it through a repeater. And yes occasionally you get screwed by the table/mission (looking at you power pack) that makes hiding them a pain in the ass to hide, oh well it happens, try to play it as best you can (normally with a crippling alpha if at 300pts), and move one, though normally if there isnt sufficient places to hide 2 - 3 40/55mm bases in the DZ the table generally as a lot of other balance issues or you setup on the 40k table by accident. That is largely a play style and list building preference thing for me currently, I use it for a lot of ablative junk and support duty. Group 2 tends to have disposable defensive elements like TR bots, flash rems, and morans, support pieces like the engineer (if solo) and the EVO and maybe a fire support piece like a tag. This means the casualties taken tend to not impact my primary pool, i can juggle supportware with out impacting the primary pool and the engineer can do it's thing (like get the TR bot back up) with out draining the main pool and a TAG realistically doesn't need a huge amount of orders to stick it's face out and rattle off a couple of shots across the table to knock something down.
Yeah I can see it working well in a Haris sure. Utterly ruining to balance compared to other things you could have in that Haris for cost (like a Riot Spitfire or a Kriza or whatever? Probably not. It wins active gunfights good, but then so do a lot of other things. You're supposed to win your active gunfights anyway. It's nice that it has a repeater and STR too. Utterly Ruining tho? Don't think so. Maybe your experience is different.
"No OnE CoMeS tO MY EVEnts" Yeah because: 1. You don't advertise them (funny that). 2. A little bit of self reflection as to why people might not want to have games with you would go a long way
Outside of the benefits of the repeater and STR, it has climbing plus which is a MASSIVE bonus over those two the increased mobility is a huge win. Additionally, it has a greater mimetism value than both them, has a better weapon than the average Kriza (assuming HMG) load out for your primary assault piece, and unlike the RG SF it's mod ignoring ability via the EVO is relevant against more targets, including the same ones the RG's visor is good for. Unfortunately this is where that dreaded math on paper comes in, as in the role of a Haris gunner has both better damage throughput and better fringe bonuses (C+, STR, Rep.) to add to it's utility, again taking the wider list elements into account, it can ignore some of the most oppressive ARO pieces due being able to get white noise right on top of it or close by to allow it to just run past. That being said I used the RG a lot as the backup for a Vostok or the opener depending table and opponent the dodge +3 is very useful as a mine sweeping tool as BJC can no longer swarm the problem with morlocks. Though I found the Kriza was consistently stalling out and being generally underwhelming for it's cost, and cutting back to the Kriza allowed me to upgrade a heckler to something more useful (raoul/Spektr depending on the list). In my experience I have found it supplant it's direct competitors in TJC and BJC when all things are considered.
You seem to have a misunderstanding of thinking I care, rather than I find it amusing. 1. I used to, however we had a significant issue with interstate people signing up then not turning up. It became a frequent issue, and our venue is small and has a size cap. I had one where 10 players did not show up, which was a problem as I would've held it on a different day for other local people had I known that was going to be the case. Not to mention I take time off work to run these things, catering to unreliable players isn't in my interest or any benefit to my community. 2. I'm not the person who keeps asking for games, buddy, your group is the one that keeps pestering me (and trying to lowkey dox me, also pretty funny). I don't have any interest in playing with clowns, but as an accommodating individual I have made an open offer that suits my schedule and is free for anyone to take up.
I don't doubt that is your experience, and I don't doubt it is good. Utterly ruining to internal balance is a whole other ballpark though. Like, as I mentioned, I played the guy ranked 7th in the world in the last IGL. He used RG Spit, RG BS Tinbot, Wolfgang as a Haris. It does a lot of the same things you mention - just in a slightly different way (including climbing plus in the Haris for example). He obviously does ok without the Vostok there. Now if he replaced the Riot Spit with the Vostok and an EVO, he'd have to lose something else out of his list and pay more pts. If he wanted White Noise for the Vostok like you mention, he then need's a Custodier too (instead he used Uberfalls with their eclispse in tandem with the Haris, which was smart I thought). Now those changes might or might not be better (you point out a lot of advantages of the Vostok, but I think there are comparative capability downsides too), but to say they don't have any opportunity costs (given they take more of some resources put into them, namely points, orders, and troop slots) is literally incorrect. In other words, there are very likely similarly effective but different ways being used to approach the same problems by different capable players. And that's indicative of relatively reasonable balance between different approaches. And that's a good thing. As has been pointed out, some other even higher rated Nomad players in the same event didn't take a Vostok either. If some of the best players are not taking it and doing well, seems unlikely it's utterly ruining to internal balance bc one guy who doesn't play outside his own tiny meta and the guy so famous for ridiculous troll complaining about everything on the forums he's literally become a common source of memes about it apparently looked at the dice calculator and insist it is seemingly based only on that. Infinity is a lot more nuanced than looking at the dice calculator would suggest. And again, that's a good thing. The general thrust of what you say about it outside that seems valid and interesting, and more like an intelligent discussion of pros and cons that is quite useful. So thanks for that.
While on this tangent, my experience in every single other army I've played is that running an EVO has several considerations you need to take into account, but points cost is the least of them. Is there room to protect the EVO given how the human versions are defenceless? Where do I deploy the repeaters? Do I have enough repeaters? Does the stuff I need to buff have repeaters? Will I be running them against a list that can contain Diplomatic Corps or similar? Do I have super glue for when the spindly fragile wings inevitable break 'cause someone looked at them too hard? That kind of thing. Strictly points and SWC cost they tend to be sufficiently flexible to be mostly a non-issue, and almost impossible to factor in if you've got more than a single REM to buff anyway. So that's my experience in all the other armies, I don't see a world where Nomads are any different, even though I've never tested Vostok specifically (I was busy testing the Tsyklon, which was quite good in the lists where I had an EVO after the pitchers were spent).
Wtf is this response. The point of something being figurative is that it’s not literal. Imagine, if I described my wife being clingy by saying “it’s like she’s glued on to me” and you go “I mean I understand what you mean and while it could be figuratively right in a sense, it's literally wrong” Like… yes…. She’s not literally glued to me, what kind of absurd response is that?
A major selling point for Infinity when I first started (way back in N2) was the lack of direct buffs. When every other game was combining X and Y powerups onto a unit for a multiplicative power effect, then slamming those units together and seeing which one was stronger, Infinity was about what you did with each individual tool and how those tools could indirectly support one another. It does not surprise me at all to see that so many problems are arising from link team buffs, tinbot buffs, and marksmanship buffs. Perhaps it is the gradual movement over time away from synergies (my HMG can clear a path for my attacker) to direct buffs (my 8pt cheerleader gives him +3 BS) thats really destabilizing the system?
I think quite obviously to anyone who cares to understand the difference between a contradiction and a contrast (rather than simply try to crudely pick fault with trivial details), because the literal (read: factual) meaning is relevant in this case. It is not a contradiction to consider both the figurative and literal meanings of something where both are relevant. More like if someone made the hyperbolic claim their wife was 7 feet tall, and the tallest woman in the village, and that their wife being the tallest was a unique concern. And I had (actually literally) measured her at 6 feet tall, shorter than several others. I might choose to be generous and do people the courtesy of engaging with general actual concerns about wives being tall, without accepting these errors in fact by saying something like 'I mean I understand what is being said, while it could be figuratively right in a sense, it's literally wrong.' Much like here, where if someone wants to take a Vostok and put Supportware on it with an EVO, they must actually pay the costs for those things, despite people claiming they have no cost, incorrectly. If the response to that is, literally, attacking pointing out factual truth as somehow absurd, I think the attack might be pointed in the wrong direction. I feel like your post would benefit from the civility of at least attempting to understand the intended meaning of what you are responding to. And likely, I would be better served ignoring it entirely because of how rude and poorly considered it comes across.
But that’s where you are massively wrong. LITERALLY NO ONE is arguing anything doesn’t cost any points, that’s such a weird straw man that I do not believe that you believe that’s actually what’s being said here. The example you are giving with the Vostok is not the same example that I give above. In infinity, when you are making a list, there a just units you will nearly always bring because of the different AVA and how they (nearly) always slot into a list, regardless of what you are bringing. The claim, and I want you to listen carefully this time Hachiman, is that Morans are considered an extra cost, in the same way as you describe the EVO as being an extra cost to the Vostok. This is, of course, nonsense because whether or not you bring Jazz has no bearing on you bringing Morans, much like choosing between a Hac Tao or a Blue Wolf has zero impact on my choice to bring Kuang Shi.
On the point of the flexibility of points and SWC, I can't remember if I have mentioned this here or not but my meta plays 400pts as standard, which really opens things up and allows for more varied and interesting builds and being able to justify a couple of dedicated support pieces.
