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ITS F2P problematic mechanics.

Discussion in 'ITS' started by FinalForm74, Sep 30, 2021.

  1. FinalForm74

    FinalForm74 Two frogs, one dog

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    Hi guys!
    I want to talk about problematic mechanic in new ITS.
    disclamer:
    I am active player and a guy that bought around 1200-1500$ CB products and brought dozen of guys into Infinity The Game. I am the target audience and I am the guy, that support everything good about Infinty.

    New ITS season seemed like tons of fun at first glance: bikes are not terrible now, wow, cool!! Turrets helping to survive first turn- incredible! Other stuff with snowy mountains looks interesting too.

    And then we have part where CB insists on buying BH on bike to stay competetive. Like without any false modesty just: well we dont really care about lore and stuff. Morats need to buy 20$ model that is not even remotely connected with them just to have that juicy 16th dude with 9-6 move, two orders and two templates.
    It is straight-into-your-wallet decision that has everythyng to do with sales and nothing to do with stuff that we love about Infinity.

    I do not want to buy random BH for my greek cyber demigods or my vegitables from another galaxy. This makes zero sence but you have to use BH to have that edge in tournament games.

    P.s. "But you can proxy it with anything s4" Not every tournament allows it and if you dont have any s4 - well it seems like now you have to buy model or lose 5% more games.

    P.P.s "You can convert BH into anything you want" yeah, but converting infinity is hard for most players and if I dont- then i am stuck with a random dude on bike in my Tooha army.

    I know that this post will be deleted, but i think that comunity and company should talk. And if we will buy out BHs on bikes - there will be consiquences for game. In ITS 16 we will find rule like "if your army include limited edition of extra fat yuan yuan (only 120$ per model) you can apply unlimited rule to your army restrictions" or something like that. Mark my words.
     
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  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Any ITS tournament should allow proxies, it's right there in the official document, doesn't even have to be S4 just the right base size.

    Or you get a 55mm base, print a picture of the bike on both sides of a piece of card, and use it as a standee, that's what people did with the Narrative ITS event that have every player either an Umbra or Tikbalang for free.

    Or you lobby your TOs to run missions without the Bike Recon rule.
     
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  3. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Any tournament that does not allow it is not ITS compliant and should be avoided for not letting you proxy

    the same silhouette proxy rule is there for a reason
     
  4. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    8 pts BS12 biker with booty seemed pretty broken to me already, but a FREE BS12 biker with booty is a whole new level. And it just feels like these rules were desined just to sell the excesses of otherwise useless Bounty Hunters on Motorcycles. Now everyone have to take one.
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Or play the missions without the Bike Recon rule

    Or use another 55mm base model they already own.

    Or use a standee on a 55mm base.
     
  6. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I have to agree with the OP in some ways. It's indeed a fairly annoying move to single out this particular profile and make it available for free without any downsides. This sets a worrying precedent to say the least and while I understand that miniature companies do leverage their rules to incentivise purchases to some degree, this is a bit too on the nose for my liking.
     
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  7. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    Oh yeah. Or run your own tournaments.
    Or make your own tabletop wargame.
     
    redeemer likes this.
  8. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    It's up to the TO if they run missions with the Bike Recon rule or not, just like Spec-Ops or missions that give a bonus to TAGs or Hackers.

    Proxy rules are an inherent part of ITS, officially you have permission to use any 55mm based miniature you like.
     
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  9. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    False equivalence. Getting a 55mm base and putting a sticker of a bike on it is not an equal level of effort to making your own tournament/wargame.

    By the rules, ITS tournaments have to allow the use of proxies. Most of us have S4 remotes lying around, and even if you don't someone in your playgroup should.

    For casual games, Base-with-sticker or a softban on the relevant ITS scenarios should serve just fine.
     
  10. FinalForm74

    FinalForm74 Two frogs, one dog

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    The adequate player has almost no choice.
    Best case scenario is you having some Kums or something like that to proxy BH in a thematic and meaningful way. Or you can convert some models into BH on bike.
    In any other situation you are basicaly screwed: you either have Traktor mule riding 9-6 and blasting opponents or just a 55mm base doing the same. This sucks.
     
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  11. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    We don't even know how many missions will have the Bike Recon rule yet.

    Yes, if someone doesn't have Kums, twins, Yojimbo, Dynamos, Mavericks, Desperados, Montesa Knight, Zondnatica, Motorised 112, Aragotos, Kuroshi rider, Bootleg Penthesilea, or Penthesilea they might proxy in a 55mm remote or a standee on a base.

    But if it's one scenario out of 3/5 in the tournament, that's not too bad. Many people also have biker models they've bought just for the fun of painting (I have the MBH and Bootleg Penny purely because I like the models, and I know I'm not unusual in this).
     
  12. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    i brought carmen in a merc add-on tournament by printing her, folded two sided, then glued on the base. Everyone knows free MBH is only there for 1 season and should not be giving you any problem for proxying it or having a paper standee on the proper base size.

    Another tournament I went before the new booty, I rolled motorcycle on my ABH in 2 of the games, and everyone was fine that i just put by ABH miniature on a 55mm Motorcycle token (I had printed the token in case i roll motorcycle (and if you do have a bike, you still need a token for when you dismount)).

    Proxy is a core rule, the TO may as well only allow 5.5 SWC at 300 Pts if he want to start changing core rule like that (like the "proxy are allowed" core rule).
     
  13. FinalForm74

    FinalForm74 Two frogs, one dog

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    Infinity is a beautiful game. Proxies are acceptable and you indeed can play with bases instead of cool painted models. But on the tournament level of play with somewhat experienced and invested players you can do better.
    And this is Infinity for me. Playing with well painted army against opponent with equally beautiful army on a nice board.
    This f2p BH situation is "you will need to use proxy, that will look unsuitable and that's kina sucks, but you can donate 20$ to purchase slightly less unsuitable mini "
     
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  14. FinalForm74

    FinalForm74 Two frogs, one dog

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    In our community only 2-3 guys have biker models. Other 12-15 don't.

    And don't get me wrong here. MBH is fine model and new basic biker rules are cool.
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Could your community play the missions without the Bike Recon rule if they don't want to buy biker models?
     
  16. FinalForm74

    FinalForm74 Two frogs, one dog

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    It depends on our TO.
     
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  17. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Yes, yes it is.

    I'm not sure why you're upset. No one is forcing you to buy a brand new biker model. The game, even at a tournament level, is perfectly playable without doing so.

    Your personal preference for fully-painted armies with models that follow What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get is admirable, but not rules-enforced, and your local TO should be reported if he attempts to enforce something similar.

    I could, in theory, walk into your store's ITS tournament with a bunch of unpainted Nomads, put them on the table as a Kosmoflot army, and by ITS rules you would have to let me compete. It wouldn't be pretty, and I'd have to make extra sure that my opponent knows which model is which, but it's 100% legal.

    Naturally, if someone at your local store is doing this in a deliberate attempt to confuse their opponent, your TO should give them a talking to. But if a newer player (or someone who doesn't want to drop hundreds of dollars on a new army) wants to play something, you let them.

    This game is one of the most "f2p" friendly wargames around.
     
  18. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I agree with the sentiment of your OP to a degree - which puts us in a small minority, it seems. The whole point of the game from a business perspective is to sell models, but it's still worrisome to see such a blatant "every player will use this unit for every game for the next year, and it's a difficult unit to proxy well" move (hopefully @colbrook is right that it'll only be for some missions. That wasn't evident to me in the screenshot).

    I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but I'm also not going to pretend its nothing. A $20 purchase is one thing, but a $20 purchase that will be obsolete next year is a big ask for some players - not everyone has the same budget. If I didn't already have any bikes, I'd want to buy one rather than proxy for a year, but I'd be a bit annoyed about it.

    That being said, the above quote is just wrong. Proxies are 100% ok regardless of tournament level or player experience. It's a personal choice. Playing with a well-painted army is indeed a pleasure of the game. "Playing against an opponent with an equally beautiful army" is not something you have a right to expect. It's your opponent's choice, not yours.
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Bostria was explicit, in the preview video that image was captured from, that it was only in scenarios with the Bike Recon rule. We don't know how widespread that will be until they release the tournament pack. Same goes for the Blizzard rule and the turrets.
     
  20. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Then I am sorry but you are not "the guy" as you say in the OP. You are in a minority (mine as well, I must admit) that like to paint and have a visually appealing army. But this is a game, and you are goalposting your sense of dislike.

    I don´t like they "force" something that does not count towards groups or is free. I find it interesting thou. I think it is a test on powerlevel of bikes, by ensuring a lot of people will think bikes are interesting and seeing how they do on the table. It is not even subtle. But don´t go at it by complaining that is "not Infinity". Might not be for you (proxying a random base), might not be for me (I am already thinking a nice Invincible Army bike proxy), but it is totally fine for the broader audience.
     
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