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Consensus on Hacking

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by D_acolyte, Sep 17, 2021.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Personally the double edged sword of it is something I like - it's a feature not a bug. So you get a choice of a very good odds normal roll vs the repeater (and eat incoming hacks on normal rolls for one order too). Or you take on their hacker(s) instead. Kind of analogous to shooting a trooper with a DTW, or berserk. It's not going to kill you unless they have KHDs, and then they only get one shot, and in which case it might be better to use your KHD against theirs first. If you get isolated or IMM'd by normal hackers, that is a cost but a repairable one and mitigatable in some ways (eh veteran hackers). Probably would be best on KHDs as suits their vibe as ninjas of the hacking world. Plus if it worked vs Mines etc that fits that vibe too.

    So not just this hard counters that but - play, potential counter play with costs, potential counter play to that and so on all with interesting potential risks and benefits and implications up to list building. Like Infinity always is at its' best.
     
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  2. Morray

    Morray Well-Known Member

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    Honestly confused?

    Trinity is Burst 3, +3 attack mod and damage 14...

    Jazz is getting KO'd with a 40% chance.
     
  3. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Your math is off; Jazz also has Trinity.

    If Jazz has a Firewall (-3), a WIP 14, BTS 3 hacker going through a repeater (and therefore getting a Firewall (-3) of his own) is 30% to KO Jazz, 10% to get KO'd back. If she's got a Firewall (-6) with her instead, then it becomes ~23% to KO Jazz vs. ~16.6% to get KO'd.

    Jazz being effectively WIP 17, BTS 9 makes her a tough nut to crack, even for the best hackers. An Interventor KHD going through his own repeater only KO's her 38% of the time; 30% if she's got a Firewall (-6).

    It can work, but it requires specific setup, a VERY good KHD, and probably quite a few orders.
     
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  4. Morray

    Morray Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I missed the comms attack -3 mod on damage, didn't realise that. Learn a new thing about this game every day...Still, like you say if you wanna kill the character killer hacker through hacking, you still have better odds on your turn with a WIP14 KHD, which aren't too rare...
     
  5. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    If you can get a Firewall bonus (which Pitchers provide) and she doesn't have a Firewall (-6) Bot, yes.

    If you CAN'T get a Firewall bonus, you get put in a dumpster because you're WIP 14 (or 11) B3 vs. WIP 17 B1, and even if you hit she saves on a 6 while you need a 13 (because she has +1 damage on her Trinity), assuming BTS 3.

    As for WIP 14 KHDs: PanO has 0, Yu Jing has 2, Ariadna has 0 (duh), Haqqislam has 4, Nomads has 4, Combined has 3, Aleph has 5, Tohaa has 1 (but no firewalls), JSA has 0, and O-12 has 2. Of those factions, only Haqqislam, Nomads, Combined, Aleph, and O-12 have access to Pitchers, though there are other ways to get a Dep Rep up the board.

    So not exactly rare, but definitely not something that everyone brings regularly, or even CAN bring. And even then the best you're getting is a ~30% chance of success, especially if she springs for the better Firewall, and this is assuming A: you go first, and B: you can land a repeater within 8" of her.

    She's not unbeatable, but she's DAMN strong, and for 19 points she's a heck of a bargain. Even in a best-case scenario you're probably looking at 3-5 orders to take her out between getting the Repeater close and then brute-forcing that 30% chance, and there's always that 10% chance you die trying it.
     
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  6. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    So we are confirming that the best named Nomad Character hacker is strong at hacking. Don´t see that changing unless they bring the legendary Morgana Interventor into the game.
     
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  7. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    The best *line infantry costed* hacker in nomads. Interventors are better. But jazz is such a low investment for the nomads player compared to what you might spend killing her.
     
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  8. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned named characters. And if they do a named Interventor (ie Morgana) she will do better probably than a baseline Interventor. Yeah, she is cost-optimized. Yeah, she is good. She is a poster-child named character in a hacking faction, do you expect?

    On the flip side, I have lost her several times to a Libertos doing a suicide run and shoving a shotgun to her face. Overlapping lines of fire, TR Remotes failing to stop him, etc, she still caught the blast and died.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Removing a Moran with a Greif is very reasonable, but Jazz is different because she's going to be in her DZ and you have to go through multiple members of her fireteam to get her. You understand this, right?

    I'm honestly very surprised you left her that open.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Why should she be the best when she's cheaper? She's severely undercosted for what she does, making the opportunity cost for including her negligible.
     
  11. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    This discussion about Jazz feels weird. While she herself is cheap, it seems like it cost resources to support her:
    1. Repeater Network: Morans (which cost SWC) or lots of Rems
    2. Making Targeted a serious threat: Vertigo Zond

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]4
    JAZZ FTO undefined / undefined. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] JAZZ FTO (Hacker, Number 2) Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermines / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 19)
    MORAN (Repeater) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse, D-Charges, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    MORAN (Repeater) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse, D-Charges, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    VERTIGO ZOND Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 17)
    3 SWC | 70 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    That seems to be the bare bones necessary to make her useful without exposing herself and costs you already half of your SWC and 4/15 slots. Note that does not include Firewall (which is only available in a sectorial) or an additional hacker. Hacking by itself seems to cost a non-trivial amount resources in both points and SWC. Am I missing something? Can someone create provide a 300 pt list that uses her to her fullest? Thank you.
     
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  12. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    The issue is that you consider the Moran a cost. With or without Jazz Morans tendo to be played in 2x in a lot of Vanilla list. MIM-3 BS 12 specialist with minelayer is enough to win a spot in a lot of list.

    Often I put Jazz in my list just because I always play 2xMoran and Vostok so it's just natural to have an HD+ that can use their repeters and Jazz is the hacker with the best opportunity cost thanks to Billie.
     
  13. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    It is a cost though, it is just a cost with a benefit - like anything else. And in fact it's more expensive in the context of a discussion of -6 Tinbots being "too good" because it doesn't include one, and the one Jazz can go with is expensive and doesn't do that much else. And then of course Jazz needs Sixth Sense for this to be effective, so that's 2 more link buddies (which you might be taking anyway but it's still part of the cost of doing it). So min you are looking at


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]7
    JAZZ FTO undefined / undefined. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] JAZZ FTO (Hacker, Number 2) Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermines / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 19)
    MOBILE BRIGADA Boarding Shotgun ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
    ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    MORAN (Repeater) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse, D-Charges, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    MORAN (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun, Flash Pulse, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    VERTIGO ZOND Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 17)
    3 SWC | 124 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    That's more than an Avatar.

    And it is strong, but it can also be de-fanged with two 4pt Gakis to take out the Morans, and then it can't project force beyond Jazz ZOC anymore, and we've already established she's hidden in some out of the way hard to get to spot in the deployment. And before anyone says 'every faction doesn't have Gakis' no they don't, but every faction has useful things that can get onto roofs etc easily and kill Morans.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but right now I'd rather have the Avatar (or Anathematic + Bit & Kiss).

    When I used it I it was something along the lines of (vaguely and quickly throwing together, might be things wrong):

    Jazz example
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    JAZZ FTO undefined / undefined. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] JAZZ FTO (Hacker, Number 2) Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermines / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 19)
    MOBILE BRIGADA Boarding Shotgun ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
    TSYKLON Feuerbach, Pitcher / PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 36)
    EVADER (Engineer) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, AP Mines ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    MOBILE BRIGADA (Lieutenant) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 32)
    MORAN (Repeater) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse, D-Charges, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    SEÑOR MASSACRE Boarding Shotgun, Eclipse Grenades, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    McMURROUGH Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades, Smoke Grenades / AP + DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    MORAN (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun, Flash Pulse, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    SALYUT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
    VERTIGO ZOND Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 17)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    4.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Which I found strong (there's a fair amount of synergy for infinity) but inconsistent. Particularly the Tysklon can give people a bad time firing Pitchers in annoying places. But its big base often makes it awkward to deploy with your link or exposes it to fire you don't want. It only has the one keystone Hacker, who is hard to counter hack, but is also squishy if you can get to her, meaning I have to hide her. And some opponents don't really care about Repeaters / hacking that much. Bakunin does the "fire a Pitcher into your deployment and Guided whatever you don't want dead" thing better IMHO, this is more reactive with its hacking.

    IMHO some other armies can do things that are overall stronger and / or counter it well too. And I guess that's why this kind of list is not winning big tournaments.
     
    #193 Hachiman Taro, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It’s also worth noting that, Morans not withstanding, tying up your whole Fireteam Core in a hidden part of the board to keep Jazz safe means it even less mobile than usual. And if your opponent notes “hey, making the trade with the Morans and forgetting about Jazz is worth it”, you’ve invested a minimum of six of your 15 troopers on a strategy that’s already been defanged. Even if it costs 50 points and a couple bodies to clear out the Morans, that means a good portion of your list now lost one of its primary purposes and has to try and switch on the fly.
     
    #194 A Mão Esquerda, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  15. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree. GML is a cost. A taxing unit (in SWC) you bring to unlock Jazz and without her is worthless. Moran is something you will bring 90% of case being the most efficient Infiltration specialist Vanilla have. If we take in consideration Corregidor Moran will probably be present in nearly 100% list.

    Well the first thing to consider is that you can't bring all this Hacker support with just one Hacker. Second I found that the GML tactics in Vanilla and Corregidor is strong because ,except for the Vertigo ,a lot of thing you bring to help deliver the missile are thing you would bring without the Vertigo. I found that 2x Moran + Vostok + jazz + Vertigo are already enough to put pressure on the enemy and you still have point and slot to do other things.And you can't say 2x Moran and a Vostok are a cost for Jazz. As I said above 2xMoran + Vostok it's probably something you already want in a lot of your list. Personaly Vostok + Jazz alone are worth a lot thanks to White Noise. If your list include some transductor Zond you are good to go having fast Repeater that you can move when you need it and don't forgot that Jazz herself comes with Pitchers.She won't shoot them in the enemy deployment, but in a Fireteam she can cover the mid field without problems.
     
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  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    It still has a cost, even if you would always take it for whatever reason, you don't get to put it into your list for free. You can compare that cost to what other things you could get with those points, and what they could do for you instead. Having a hacking synergy doesn't change that, I wouldn't take them if they didn't have it compared to say a Zero, who has marker state.

    Also, I can bring just one hacker (actually there's two), and have. It's fine. It's one of several tools in that list and there are trade offs. There are some changes I might make (like trying to make the Brigada Hacker fit if I really wanted a tinbot hacker, instead of just the tinbot). It is just an example. But some of those changes might make it not fit the criteria discussed for the example (eg using Jazz + tinbot to full effect). I like the Tsyklon better than the Vostok personally. You're welcome to demonstrate a better example?
     
    #196 Hachiman Taro, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  17. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Mobile Brigada Tinbot -6 is a bad unit you are way better off taking a Evader Spitfire Tinbot -3, it is enough for giving Jazz "cover" and has massive value of its own
    Tsyklon is also suboptimal because you are mostly paying HI price for a single wound unit and just pitcher capability

    Vertigo is not a big tax on a generic Corregidor list which makes Corregidor one of the only armies where GML is somewhat viable, but going farther, like completely skipping on high burst firepower in favor of single burst coinflipping... you are going to have miserable games when you lose initiative or go into missions that favor going second
     
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  18. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    On the fly I would play something like this :


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    WILDCAT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 23)
    EVADER Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, AP Mines ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    JAZZ FTO undefined / undefined. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] JAZZ FTO (Hacker, Number 2) Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermines / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 19)
    VALERYA GROMOZ (Hacker) Combi Rifle, Zapper, Pitcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21)
    DAKTARI Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    MOBILE BRIGADA (Lieutenant) MULTI Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
    MORAN (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun, Flash Pulse, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    MORAN (Repeater) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse, D-Charges, Crazykoala ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    SALYUT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    VERTIGO ZOND Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 17)
    VOSTOK FTO (Mimetism [-6]) Mk12(+1 Dam) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 44)
    EVADER (Engineer) MULTI Rifle, Panzerfaust, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    5.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    I feel I have a better core in this list thanks to the Wildcat with HRL. 6 unit that can form a core. Second group an haris with Vostok + Jaguar + Evader Engi. The vostok is a mim-6 with Marksmanship that I feel can reach midfield easily enough thanks to Jaguars smoke and Jaxx white noise. I am not saying this list is better than your, that hardly something you can tell in Infinity without knowing mission or the field, but in this list the GML is not the main strategy rather one of the pieces that can help with hard targets.
     
  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The main problem with Jazz is that she singlehandedly elevated Corregidor from a run of the mill Hacking Sectorial with a very good Repeater net, to a top shelf Hacking Sectorial with a very good Repeater net.

    There's no shortage of good and cheap Hacking in N4 elsewhere.
    However the addition of easily Core linkable Jazz makes Mary Problems and Interventors blush, in what used to be the Nomad Sectorial that used to focus in other areas. To the extend that you even take Jazz in Vanilla without the readily available Firewall Corregidor would provide.
    It's an affordable expense for a high utility, high impact addition. As close to autopick as it gets these days.

    This isn't a complaint per se, Corregidor is an excellent Sectorial in terms of playability and performance. I'd like every Sectorial to be roughly where it is.
    The way it was done, by removing weakpoints, allowing almost the whole Sectorial to Wildcard and adding several new beyond min max troops that outshine existing ones, without a care in the world about restricting access for Vanilla to at least some of these standouts, is a page out of a GW playbook and that worries me.
     
    #199 Teslarod, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  20. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I mean I agree the Brigada tinbot isn't the best profile, but we are talking in a context of Jazz + tinbot -6 supposedly being too strong. So that why I included it. 34pts for that tinbot is a lot to pay just for an add on to Jazz tho. Don't mind the Brigada hacker sometimes.

    I like the Tsykon better than the Vostok for a few reasons. Its cheaper, its longer range and hits harder. The EVO buffs it two different ways. Its a swing piece (works for both active and reactive), can take more orders to put down than to get it back up, it cracks armour, B3 effective BS18 with eng support is generally plenty, long range pitchers can be savage, and synergise with Jazz as asked etc. Thats a nice thing about infinity tho. There aren't many 'right' answers just ones you like more ;)

    I think McMurrough and Massacre are also nice alternate tools in mine tho.
     
    #200 Hachiman Taro, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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