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Comparing Crane Contemporaries

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Weathercock, Sep 28, 2021.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Also mimetism and MSV in a core.
    And immunity to being bricked.
    And an extra tac aware order.
    And NBW.
    Varangians also all come bearing smoke that lands on 20s.
     
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  2. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    This is all true. Really though, it's more important that there are only 4 out of about 42 factions that have anything close to a 77 point buffed crane core link than that there are a few examples on par or even slightly better than Crane + Kuang Shi. Most of the time, your match up won't have the advantage of a link like this. (I think you missed the Morat hungries link, w/ Kornak or another wildcard... also pretty great).

    When I put a Crane in a list with a specific mission, generally the Crane gets the job done and is still a solid chunk of meat. Also, a lot (not all!) of these extra rules are just gravy. Most of those differences really don't matter. NBW is a classic example: if your enemy has MA2+, it probably already has a pretty high CC value... so negating MA just turns the combat into a hairy dice off. The safest way to negate an enemy's cc skills is still to just shoot it in the face. Mimetism is an amazing rule, but also pretty similar: if you're shooting the right target with a BS 16 burst 5 spitfire making it skew more in your favor won't make the enemy much more dead.

    Yes, it would be nice to have an AP spitfire because it would counter a faction weakness of ISS, which is that you have to get pretty creative to deal with tags and heavy armor. But you have other units to do that, like that B3 heavy shotgun on the Su Jian.

    (Ah, but that gravy the other factions have sure looks like delicious, delicious gravy. Why can't we have gravy? Why? What did we do wrong that those other guys get gravy and all we get is steak? Did we do something wrong? CB... don't you love us like you love your other children? GIVE THE CRANE SOME GRAVY)
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Dude do you even look at army before you post stuff? There's so many permutations of fireteams that feature 1 elite guy + 4 idiots that come in around that cost it's not funny trying to list them all. Every single Nomad sectorial can do a Vostok+4 line infantry that makes the Crane look like a joke, TAK have always had a Vet Kazak+4 idiot Kazaks, just open army and open your eyes they're not hard to find.

    Shit go look at Dahshat they can do TacAw Zuyong+4 12pt ABH.

    If you think a Crane link is an example of a high tier cost effective link I'm sorry you need to actually explore what exists in this game. It's an old as balls fireteam that hasn't aged well into N4, which isn't surprising given that in its day it was basically the test bed for mixed links. Just like the rest of ISS it just needs an update to get with the times.
     
    #23 Triumph, Sep 29, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
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  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Still seems to come down primarily to "Asawira BS, UKR BS" and only secondarily "Crane Bad". Should we be arguing for Crane to be buffed to stupid levels or for outliers to be reigned in?

    Unspendable irregular orders makes that link pretty shit IMO.

    Dude can you leave the attitude to the chucklefucks and disagree more respectfully?
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I can when I'm less exasperated with the level of stupidity I'm being repeatedly subjected to. Fuck me, I even missed the part in the quoted text where we're being told a hungry core is a good link.
     
  6. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    It's a game, try to have some fun with it and remember not everyone plays it enough to have a 4500 post count on it's forum lol
     
  7. SpectralOwl

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    Definitely a nerf to the outliers. A little more optimisation on the Crane couldn't hurt, given it and the Monk are the only usable remnants of Yu Jing's CC era, but getting rid of the crazy would ultimately be better for the game and lead to a lot more list variety in the long run.
     
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  8. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    100% agree. Played enough games "where everything is broken, so nothing is" and like Infinity because it deviates from that. That said, I want base HI to be closer to Asawira than to their powerlevel now as I have been saying for a long time that they should be better than skirmishers at fighting.

    Would love to see a price cut on most non-swc HI toting rifles and stuff, and for the crane specifically it wouldn't exactly break the game to put sensor on the gun platform and give it a non-hacker specialist option I think
     
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  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately realistically we're going to be treading water on the issue until next year anyway, no point making adjustments to anything until the fireteam changes settle in and we can figure out how that effects the game at a macro level.
     
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  10. SpectralOwl

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    It sorta needs a hand on its own too; it's a very rare Vanilla pick since it's a DZ-deployed troop built for close-up attacks, and therefore quite costly in terms of orders to use, but lacks effective counters to many common midfield defenses (including Hacking, E/M templates, shotgun trades and Hidden Deploment ambushes) and its CC has fallen behind most assassins due to power creep, limiting its use as both a tough assault piece or a safe LT. Personally I'd like to see its defenses buffed up a bit, leaving it as a slightly sub-par linked Spitfire but making it utter hell to assassinate or sneak past- it's a cross between a Warhammer Inquisitor and a kung-fu movie villain, let it make anything short of the named Fiday quietly skulk away when they see one coming.
     
  11. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Pretty much this.

    It wouldn't take much in terms of minor buffs to make a crane a viable pick. Even just sensor on a quick HI with CC and dodge bonus (or smoke, if only) is a pretty interesting concept within the yu jing line up.

    or less restriction of equipment on the profiles. Just give them all sensor and x-visor.

    or sure, make them crazy scary CC units or even just align with other agents and chuck in a para-6 to complement their CC skills.

    I could see veteran being an interesting differentiator for the Crane Lt versus other HI picks like the Hsien. But thats starting to go wishlist territory.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately the state hacking leaves the meta in it's never going to be a desirable vanilla pick without doing something awful like trying to clone a Shang Ji out of it. It's easier to invest in our hack proof or hack difficult options and just avoid the issue entirely. Su Jian in its own right has a great stat block with a bunch of really solid profiles.... still gets benched all the time for my Vanilla for the same reasons.
     
    #32 Triumph, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  13. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Ok, so I'm stale on the Hungries link... which hasn't dealt with the unit cap change well. As usual, that has triggered all the usual "you're wrong on one thing so I will rudely ignore the core of your argument" forum nonsense.

    tldr: A dogged chain rifle core link with a smoke LGL is still better than 4 regular mooks and cheaper! Crane can still get plenty of work done in ISS even without being an Asawira or Unknown Ranger.

    Yes, they could benefit from optimisation and some buffs, but they actually do work now and they're a pretty flexible wildcard unit.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    No, what happened was you straight up ignored everyone pointing out the link is literally a shitter version of other links found in other factions then stuck your head in the sand and kept crying "LALALALA I LIKE MY CRANE I CAN'T HEAR YOU."

    The reality is that link was already aging out in effectiveness levels if you compared it to late N3 offerings, and in N4 it's absolutely outclassed in both its own weight class and by N4 fireteams in general.

    This, like this shit right here is what drives me up the wall. People saying dumb stuff, pretending it's correct, and when you tell them it's not, they just say it again with more conviction!

    This is what happens if you say, had a that core linked Crane spitfire pick a fight with a placeholder core linked unit that's BS13, ARM3, with an MSR firing DA rounds and we're being generous and putting the crane in its good rangeband.

    [​IMG]


    This is what happens if you put Mimetism on the Crane.

    [​IMG]

    Lo and behold, that shit matters. 13% more likely to stick a wound while 7% less likely to shit the bed and take a wound, for a total of a 20% swing in outcomes.

    I don't mind when people disagree with me, hell I welcome it. Having a discussion is good. I get really shitty about it when people disagree about stuff and put absolutely no fucking effort into making coherent reasoning as to why and just spout absolute nonsense as arguments. Nobody "ignored the core of your argument" the core of your argument was shit.
     
    #34 Triumph, Sep 30, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
  15. Arschbombe

    Arschbombe Well-Known Member

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    This thread has made me realize something. 5157kCh7AoL._AC_SY780_.jpg
     
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  16. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    We keep having this argument because you prop up a paper tiger and knock it down in response to everything, then dance around in self-congratulatory circles hurling insults.

    It's entirely typical in N4 for the core linked multi sniper to have MSV1. It flatly doesn't matter if the crane has mimetism or not in that scenario, as the numbers will be the same. If it doesn't have MSV1, it's pretty damn easy to get inside 24" with a smoke throwing core link, eh?
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    YueFei's hot take of N4: Mimetism is a worthless skill because apparently everything you shoot at in the game will have MSV, and having smoke grenades makes a mimetic shooter pointless over a non mimetic one?

    Riiiiiiiiiight. Well it does come from the mind that brought us the wisdom of the Hungry core link so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.
     
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  18. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    You're a fool.

    Mimetism is a useful skill, it just doesn't matter all the time. The Crane is still capable of doing most Crane Things without mimetism.
     
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Please be civil guys. Instead of arguing, prove it by playing it.
     
  20. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Triumph, while I largely agree with you, please cool it. Don't be the person I don't want to agree with.

    As for the Crane itself, I do like the previously mentioned idea of it becoming the most 'fuck around and find out'-able thing on a table. A king among door-kickers and uber-denier of ZoC. Unfortunately, simply having a B2 DTW doesn't really mean a whole lot in N4 anymore.

    That said, there are a few things that I absolutely do not want to see added to the Crane as a means to fix him:

    Mimetism - Conceptually lazy and weak, this is not what ISS should be. Keep ISS weird, no need to overload every faction with mimetic gun fighting kings.
    Natural Born Warrior - Cranes are not born. Cranes are made through discipline and training.
    Tinbot firewall - ISS already has two Tinbot B options available to it that the Crane can link with. Giving him tools to be of more value linked to those troopers would be a better solution here. There's no reason to add another, and there's no need to turn the Crane into ISS' version of the Shang Ji. Despite wearing the same armour, they do not share an identity. Especially when YJ as a whole has a problem with blending sectorial identities. Of course, this brings up the problem of how a trooper should maintain hacking defense without it in an edition that doesn't really do a whole lot to offer those defenses.
     
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