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Consensus on Hacking

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by D_acolyte, Sep 17, 2021.

  1. Pander22

    Pander22 Well-Known Member

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    Plan is not to take a room full of templates to the face with your remaning link members after they reform as impersonation stops that, and same again for defending the room if you can set it up right,

    For example i did this to a room full of bolts that had dropped a handfull of dropbears in there, tyen free from having to deal with the tmplates as the opponent delayed as he didnt know what i was doing sliced the pie with remaining link until the room was clear without a single loss, then moved the link in and settled in, now he also couldnt just missile spam the room as my main aro was beside the impersonator
     
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  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Huh. Actually pretty legitimate idea to use the Cybermask as a literal shield against DTW spam, didn't think of that. I think I'll actually steal that idea for Haidao KHDs. Won't really work against a room with many opponents in there, as they'll just sac 1 or 2 to discover while the rest delay. But for engaging singular models like a TAG covering a corner with a deadman's switch on his flamethrower, solid idea I think.
     
    #162 Triumph, Sep 27, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  3. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    why the hell are you shooting at someone IN COVER as an impersonator lmao
     
  4. Pander22

    Pander22 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah definitely worth remembering especially with how much more common DTW are in N4, I was lucky as my opponent thought I was just going to template back so didn't waste the shots, While Bob from accounting stood awkwardly in the middle of the room as a firefight raged around him,

    It also helps if you know a fiday or a drop troop is coming so you hide your interventor or cheap killer hacker beside your link to stop templates from spamming them all to death, Tonnes of uses for it.
     
  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Less good in that application, they can place the templates such that it still clips most of the team and not the impersonator, especially when they have positional advantage. Also in regards to the Fiday and his ilk, if they are dropping one of them on the team there is a good chance they going first and in that case you wont have the chance to get the imp state up, meaning most of the time the interventor is safer in the fire team where it can at least trade/fight them.

    But generally yes cyber mask has a bunch of applications and ways to abuse it. Realistically Cybermask is the only real option KHD platforms have for killing enemy hackers. Better off saving points, removing the useless piece of kit and making killer hackers just Hacker(Cybermask) and calling it a day.





    Also a more general note on this whole discussion RE people tunnel visioning like mad on the interventor, it isn't the only concerning hacker out there that abuses firewalls and tinbots to make it self pretty much invulnerable any hacker that is base BTS 6 that can hide behind a tinbot (which almost all hacking factions have access to) is a problem and that only made worse when it also either has veteran or multiple wounds, focusing on just one extreme piece without considering the other players in that space does nothing but undermine the argument from both sides, and greatly misses the point leaving both parties looking like morons.

    On the particular topic of KHD's vs hackers I have made my thoughts known on multiple occasions and really do not have the energy to do so again.
    Aside from to point out that the tunnel vision on the game's apex hacker is asinine, yes it should dominate that space and taking it down in that manner should not be easy unless its something in it's weight class in regard, and it can only get firewalls from a friendly repeater it can be outmaneuvered and in it's home sectorial where there is little to no defensive repeater coverage and barely more conventional defense so you can just roll it with a sufficiently aggressive turn 1 play (especially for those of you playing at 300, where that kind of thing is greatly rewarded).

    The hackers that are the problem are the ones that can get a cheap tinbot firewall that can't be outmaneuvered giving them the durability of the apex hackers, passive repeater projection and active projection that makes a missile bot play viable (whether it's pitcher or not) leaving you with no counter play on that such that the risk vs reward is so far in their favour its laughable (especially at 300 where you just need to kill one or two models to cripple an army), or grand theft tag to get some free cheap kills, or just bricking their HI.


    Though whether or not you agree with that there is still one MAJOR problem with hacking separate from the KHD VS Hackers discussion and that is the internal balance between the programs. Unlike N3 where there was often a reason to use different offensive programs in different circumstances, now all you do is throw Oblivion or Spotlight at the problem with none of the others entering consideration.
    At the very least the damage values of carbonite and Oblivion should be switched such that you have one low dam AP program that is less likely to stick but will completely cripple them (oblivion) and one high dam DA program that is likely to stick but is a minor annoyance and just slowing them down (carbonite). At the moment however you just take Oblivion like the N4 RedRum on steroids that it is and throw it out everywhere because no other program is as effective, then maybe spotlight on top to really rub it in and have forced a kill state on the piece, or line it up for a missile strike.
    Hacking went from an interesting decision focused part of the game with some nuance (redrum excepted that program fucked balance nearly as oblivion does now) relying on the player to pick the right tool for the job, to some boring lobtomite's single option dream that utterly fucked the entire mechanic.
     
    #165 Tourniquet, Sep 27, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Only problem with the damage swap is that the Avatar can firewall up now and that would end up making both programs very lackluster as an ARO threat. Same goes for other BTS9 heavy hitters, but naturally the Avatar is the stand out with its extreme alpha strike potential and generally insanely high stats block.

    It's almost like the hacking program list was dumbed down too much and there should be an AP version of Carbonite for dealing with high BTS targets that laugh at it....
     
    #166 Triumph, Sep 27, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    First of all, even without cover it's not that high a percentage of a move, and the Impersonator is almost certainly dying in the process. Odds are you've wasted your 20 or so points and a couple orders.

    Second of all, and more importantly, why would someone deploy Jazz such that she's easy to approach when her most powerful abilities don't require LoF? It's an idiotic supposition on your and anyone else who agrees with you's part, which doesn't match with how the game is actually played, solely because you don't have anything factual or accurate to help you to argue against me.
     
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  8. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    @Hecaton you calling someone else is idiotic is very hypocritical and rude. YOU are the one who seems inabke to deal with this aspect of the game, YOU are the the one who seems to struggle with basic concept such as piece trading and YOU are the one who needs to GET GOOD or quit. The rules are not going to change because you want them too. Time to accept that and move on.
     
  9. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Let's not feed the troll. Let Hecaton live under his tunnel vision bridge and fling insults at everyone that dare disagree with him.
     
  10. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    I'm 100% with you on that. Hacking feels like an idiotic joke right now.
    [​IMG]
    N4 hacking as percieved by me

    With the N4 streamlining craze hacking lost it's diversity and furthermore this wasn't compensated by adding some variety to the remaining programs. A +1B or +1Dam etc. added here and there is not a really interesting choice IMO. What about a Carbonite (Total Reaction) or something else (Triumph already mentioned AP)? Especially the overcosted MI Hackers woud benefit from such tailored programs since they are most likely the hackers who won't benefit from any tinbot firewall.
    Furthermore a change to all programs getting DAM 15 would make Carbonite a less bad choice against BTS 9 targets as you can see here:

    Hacking.jpg
    Above you see the propability of one successful hit to apply its effect (-1Wound, Isolated, Imm B) in reation to the target's BTS combined with the -3 to the program's Dam by a firewall.

    Trinity could stay at Dam 14 though or any +Dam MODs on this program should go. If it becomes too deadly we'll get the late N3 situation again. Nevertheless I'd really like to see the resurgence of Blackout (maybe as Target: Comms Equipment DAM 15 B2 AP+DA Effect: Disabled, no Reset penalties).
     
    #170 Tristan228, Sep 28, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In before someone misinterprets that diagram by missing that Trinity also has a +3 MOD to stick the hit and a higher burst in the active turn.

    They've removed Disabled as a State. For use against Comms Equipment on hackable units such as Iguanas, there is Oblivion. The "issue" is Comms Equipment on non-hackables such as Aconticimiento Regulars or deployed equipment. Against deployables you could easily just expand Oblivion's targets and you'd have most of Blackout back. For Comms Equipment on non-hackables I think a valid question is whether it is desirable to be able to disable it, both in terms of gameplay balance and whether it adds interesting complexity.
     
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  12. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I think one under recognised thing about Oblivion vs Carbonite is that they have very different effects, as well as different likelihoods of success. I'm not saying their success chances are perfectly balanced - but Isolating an ARO piece you need to get past just doesn't do the same thing as immobilizing it. So one does not negate the use of the other, and sometimes you want to do one after the other (resetting out of IMM when isolated is hard)

    I do feel like a Blackout program with a very good chance of success that turned off comms equipment and deployables would be interesting. Maybe even on EVO's (or maybe KHDs or even DHDs). Keeps hacking asymmetrical as I believe is the intent but increases counterplay.
     
    #172 Hachiman Taro, Sep 28, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  13. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
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    This might be a quite interesting, and also favorable method of buffing MIs.
     
  14. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    I totally forgot that disabled Comms Equipment is just a side effect of the Isolated state now, not its own state (But kind of logic since a successful Deactivator use removes the deployed Equipment/Weapon from the table. :thinking_face: But who uses Deactivators? With LOF to the deployed thing you can shoot it for good... A ZOC mode would be fine on them as well).
    Ther Regulars' Dep.Rep is not an issue since it's not considered on the table as long as it's not deployed. The Morans' repeaters on the other hand fit that "issue" too well though. And I'd guess there'll be a huge interest to get those repeaters offline without the need to hunt down the bearer.
     
  15. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Doesn't really seem too hard to have an effect that either removes the equipment from the table, or renders it inoperable if it is on a trooper. Maybe even a successful Reset brings it back. Would depend how strong it proves I guess. Bonus if it works vs AI Beacons.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Deactivators are for most units with them better than just shooting a device with a rifle quality gun, but you also need to haul the Engineer to the location and the increase in chance usually doesn't merit doing that and the equipment removed is typically so cheap it's never worth spending extra orders on it. As I've mentioned, I'd like to experiment with simply adding No LOF to Deactivators and see what happens as all factions, most lists in fact, will have an engineer or two.

    I think... Morans are a repeater stuck to an order and a specialist, "solving" that problem comes with rewards that solving a deployable repeater doesn't. In terms of hacking, I think this is perfectly fine.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm not going to accept that because the rules *have* been changed based on this kind of thing in the past.

    I understand piece trading, it's just that in this case it would be killing your own piece for no benefit. Such a good deal. You can't articulate how a piece like a Grief Op could attack Jazz against a competent player, you're just insisting that it's true but won't provide the evidence. So yeah, I think it's *you* who is unable to deal with this aspect of the game; you aren't good enough to see what the problems here are.

    Oh I'm sorry, the game is perfect and beyond reproach. My mistake.
     
  18. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Still wandering through the Night

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    Oh hey, you do know how to multi-quote. Wasn't sure after the mess you left on other pages.

    If she's that well protected, it sounds like the morans giving her a repeater network or the other members of her fireteam are vulnerable. Maybe hit those to remove the bonuses that make her top-tier?
     
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  19. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Many players don't need it explicitly articulated, and therefore don't need the time spent to demonstrate that it is trivial to put a Greif Operator in the same 'totally inaccessible' place a Moran supposedly goes and like, shoot it (giving Moran +6 Range for a BS in 8" but no Cover bc you can move or place to deny it)
    upload_2021-9-29_11-27-45.png

    Or do the same with Jazz (with a little more risk), being thoughtful enough to place or move to deny her cover like any competent player would, and get cover yourself.
    upload_2021-9-29_11-23-53.png

    If you're smart and the table helps you at all you might even be able to outrange her smg with your combi.
    upload_2021-9-29_11-25-11.png

    Not if you imagine 'having a competent opponent' means conditions are always perfect for your opponent and never for you though. Like if they always have cover and you never do, even in your active turn when you control it, the odds are worse I guess.

    But then there's no arguing with someone who when you say "often WB have climbing plus or super jump" changes the word 'often' to 'most' and then calls you a liar for saying 'most' WB have climbing plus or super jump is there? Or says -6 tinbots are a problem, but oh, not in that faction you just brought up where they appear.

    They are always going to be able to ignore things that show them wrong, or find or invent a detail to prove to themselves that they are right, and the world is wrong online. But sometimes you can see that in a disparity in how absolutely they speak about things, in comparison to their actual game record.

    P.S. Nourkias and Rodoks have super jump in Onyx though, and the former doesn't care about taking a wound, can cybermask or not be a hacker and dodges Koalas on 15s, and the latter doesn't care about getting hacked or isolated. A sphinx has climbing+ marker state and a tak aware order to get back out of trouble and de-isolated by Dr worm if she gets in trouble the one order she typically needs to blat an LI (or can be de possessed by a hacker if she is that unlucky). So all those are also decent options to take out a Moran / repeater tucked on a roof at least. Let alone if they can get to somewhere to plunge fire at Jazz from beyond her good range. There will be some objection to those being solutions ofc, because ignoring the fact that there are usually not perfect solutions in Infinity, only trade offs with random risk that needs mitigation allows some people to convince themselves that they lose because of a lack of solutions not a lack of problem solving.

    I'm sure there are ways hacking can be improved or rebalanced a bit though. Things always can. I like that Blackout idea quite a lot.
     
    #179 Hachiman Taro, Sep 29, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
  20. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    Yes, I think the only exception to that are the Machinist and the EVAders.
    So the Deactivator will still be usable only against already deployed equipment and with the 0"-8" + 6 MOD? That would be auto minesweeping (and repeatersweeping) for any WIP 14+ engineer
    But "solving" it half-assed with even less orders has its appeal too ;)

    One main issue with the proposed Blackout will be the fact that any hacker not supported by a own tmrepeater has to enter the enemy hackers' HA which can result in a suicide mission to just turn off one repeater. One option would be to let act similar to smoke so any success on the repeater will cancel also the enemy hackers' attacks. Althougt right no i think the B2 should be enough to counter one hacker and get the repeater offline (AFAIK the repeater's firewall is only in effect when it is used to access the enemy network not when it is the target...).
    Another Idea to circumvent itroducing a new state would be to use the unloaded state. Fluffwise the program just FUBARs the equipment. So the deployed stuff is off the table analogus to the Deactivator and troopers who lost their equipment can restock it via Baggage (another incentive to use EVO/Baggage bots).
     
    #180 Tristan228, Sep 29, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
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