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N4: Druze Bayram Security

Discussion in 'Druze Bayram Security' started by AmPm, Jul 20, 2021.

  1. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Hmm, having just buildt a list for a Monday game (200pts Annihilation vs Steel Phalanx) I have also noticed how short Druze are of Core options.
    If I'm not mistaken, only Druze Shock Teams can form a Core (true, there's a smorgasboard of troops who can be a part of a Druze Core - but you still are bound to have at least one Druze).

    And Druze Shock Teams - being the sole Total AVA entry in the DBS list - are kinda pricy.
    • Bounty Hunters do fine as Fireteam fillers... but there's AVA limit of 2.
    • Brawlers are passable if you need to plug a hole in shape of a specialist / special weapon that otherwise would be gapng open, but at 15pts for a basic Rifle+LSG, they are essentially overpriced in my eyes.
    I mean, this (still) looks like a conscious design decision - but man, it hurts. Especially when you don't want to rely on a handful of cheap REMs for Order generation. Some cheaper, lighter Druze-equivalents could be handy (say, Druze recruits?).
     
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  2. dijit

    dijit Active Member

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    Which is true for most of N2 sectorials, but 'similar' does not 'the same' make. They'd still play very differently based on how FTs in each sectorial work.

    Every list has the same basic REMs. What makes DBS different is our reliance upon them and the AVA of them (AVA 3 pathfinders, Clippers in a Core FT). Brawlers are in a lot of N2 sectorials, but few can use them as DBS can (Brawlers are pretty much wildcards in DBS as we only have them and Druze).Just because you have similar or the same units, and can perhaps put more or the less the same units in a list, doesn't mean the list plays the same, due to other support units available and how each list's fire teams can be built.

    Here are 3 lists, one from QK, one from Ikari and one from DBS. Yeah they're not great lists by any imagination. You would be a fool to play any of these lists (plus none have lieutenants), but they show that just because you have the same units available, doesn't mean that you'd build lists the same in each sectorial, due to other units being available in those sectorials.

    QK
    Ikari
    DBS

    AVA 3 Wu Ming with haris, would be a great addition to DBS. Fluff wise it seems sound. As a harris, Wu Ming would never be the core of the list, but add a little punch and variety.

    But to be really controversial, we need more profiles on the Druze themselves, with more different skills, so that they end up being more prevalent in DBS lists. I can see a profile with forward deployment and FO (that can't be part of a FT) being very useful (though perhaps OTT due to our reliance on said clipper in a core fire team). But certainly a Druze profile with Tactical Awareness and a Druze profile with NCO.
     
    #82 dijit, Sep 26, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
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  3. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    With pricing starting at 24pts and quickly going north of it, I don't think we'd see them more often by any means.
    DBS is well-covered when it comes to offensive models in 20-30 (and up to 40) points range. It is order monkeys we lack.
     
  4. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    What are you looking for that is not covered by Brawlers, ABH and REMs?
     
  5. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    Profiles like regular Ghulams/Moderators/Alguaciles/Keisotzu for 10-11pts that are able to defend themselves with a CombiRifle or LightShotgun.

    ABH are AVA2, Brawlers are more expensive and REMs lack weapons or are more expensive
     
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  6. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    What @kesharq said. ABH would do (thay aren't perfect, packing SMGs at 12pts, but good enough), if they weren't AVA 2.

    Also, a Core option that is not a Druze Shock Teams, if I might ask for that.
    DBS is simply too narrowly focused on DST, IMO. We could really use something Druze that isn't the Shock Teams.
     
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  7. dijit

    dijit Active Member

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    When list building it's rarely cheap orders I'm missing, but more door breakers. Yes we've got Wolfgang now, but you know what? I dislike having to field a named character to fill a hole in my list. Hell, I dislike named characters full stop. If I can't get a druze HI unit, then I'd like my druze to have more survivability (shock immune, nwi, dogged), or failing that better order efficiency (tac aware or nco), just so I can have a more reliable point man.

    I'd love something that was still Druze, that wasn't Shock team. HI has been talked about already. A light infantry unit would be interesting, though I've always imagined the ABH as DBS recruits, and Brawlers as disposable lackeys.
     
  8. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    My main issues are:

    Brawlers are fusilier quality but pay an extra 5 points for mostly worthless stat buffs.
    as with Dijit - for certain missions that require CQB Druze really suffer on the durability front. If Arslan wasn't so poorly optimised, or if we had a no frills HI this would actually help to provide more list variety quite a lot. It doesn't help that I don't like wolfgang either.

    These two items together would massively improve my enjoyment of druze list writing. That and not relying on so many named characters... it gets ridiculous when you have more named characters than actual druze in a list.
     
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  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    To me, Druze are all about that X-Visor. They can be on your DZ table edge and kill stuff. But they can also do a decent hacking game. Unfortunately all 20-something MI are in a bind right now. Why take any of them when you can take good cheaper LI or HI that cost almost as much?
     
  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I have to admit I really like the idea of Druze HI, but where would you take them rules and theme-wise? Just making them an upscaled variant of the MI with similar skills sounds a little boring but some of the Druze typical elements should probably be preserved for thematic consistency. Just throwing a few ideas around here:

    "Druze Enforcers" - exclusive to DBS

    MOV 6-2 / CC 19 / BS13 / PH 14 / WIP 13 / ARM 5 BTS 5 / W2 / S2
    Veteran, BS Attack (+1 DAM), Immunity (Shock, Critical), Dodge (PH=12), Dogged, ECM: Guided (-3) Hacking (-3), Fireteam Haris


    - Veteran is an outstanding skill on HI and would keep in theme, so this one seems obvious
    - X-Visor is in a similar spot, but that would already get them rather close to the MI variant and enhance their range bands, which I want to avoid specifically.
    - BS [+1 DAM] is another one of those that just feels unintuitive to have on MI and not on HI. Keeping this for thematic reasons.
    - Viral Heavy Pistols, Adhesive Grenades, Grenades, Para CCW (-3) on all loadouts.
    - Engineer loadout with BSG, Deactivator, Chest Mine and D-Charges. Only specialist option to keep MI Druze relevant.
    - Utility Loadout with TacAware and Tactical Deployment (tacticool headset visible on model).
    - Arslan is "Can be used as Enforcer", HI and more useful now. LT and NCO variants. MSV1 + Viral Marksman Rifle with enforcer Baseline profile.
    - MMR on Arslan is the longest range option. Loadouts focus on CQC with SMGs, Grenades and BSGs to keep the price down. Maybe the occasional Panzerfaust for AROs. Long range combat will still require MI Druze/ABH/Brawlers/TAGs/Al Fasid.
    - Special Haris fireteam with Al Fasid, who get ported over (and ideally deleted) from Ikari to differentiate them some more
    - Special Fireteam Core with MI Druze and Enforcers, but no other wildcards otherwise to keep things in check.
     
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  11. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    ARM 5 BTS 5 S2 looks like kind-of higher-end Heavy Infantry armors from a mainline faction. Going to be pricy. Not that this would be an inherently bad thing, but OTOH I see DBS as being seriously handicapped by having few inexpensive options to choose from. adding expensive HI wouldn't help that.

    Personally I envisioned the Druze HI more like Terracota Soldiers (represetning comercially-available YJ armors) used by Dahshat Company.

    Then there is one more problem I see: it would require CB to release Druze-specific HI models. If memory serves me, so far the only exclusively Druze-specific model is Arslan - all other models are available to some other faction as well (with Brawlers being rather universal as NA2-sepcific troop). I've seen NA2 as being composed of mainline factions' models, with very few (if any) faction specific ones. A clever move by CB to increase customer base among the existing player population.

    I don't really see it as a viable expectation. So, if we were to see Druze HI, I'd rather expect the "Druze Zuyongs / ORCs / Brigada / Janissaries" approach (perhaps with a different profile list than in their mainline entry, though making use of the existing sculpts to represent them).

    Yes, yes, I know. JSA. But they are grouped with NA2 mainly because there was no other place to put them after the Uprising. and they share a good deal of their models with Ikari Company.
     
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  12. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I agree with that notion and I don't believe an exclusive release for DBS to be likely either. I do, however, believe that after JSA, DBS would be the ideal candidate for one, as it is one of those NA2 sectorials that has an identity of its own and is not just an amalgam of various other factions.

    One way I could see this happen is DBS becoming part of a future operation/beyond set with 2 HI + Arslan included. Not sure they are going to give Druze this prominent a role anytime soon, though.
     
  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I agree about them not likely to make a troop just for Druze. It would almost need to be a Brawler HI rather than Druze HI. Something that sells to more than Druze. Even if it's just NA2. I don't mind something like a S5 but it should not be on par with something made my State Factions like Yu Jing and PanO. It should be slower, small AVA, and and not many options. However it needs to provide a role that regular Druze and and some NA2 can't do. To me the one that already exists, and makes the most sense is the Azra'il. Druze are already close the QK, get equipment from Haqqislam and I don't think it would make Druze more like QK. They could even do something different for them like "Azra'il may joing a Haris of Druze." or something like that. Also AVA1 would be good.

    JSA went almost from being a 1st world country to 3rd world overnight. They are not even a third of the economic or military power of Yu Jing now. However they also have a big military. What was sufficient for Yu Jing is now too much for JSA. So in order to keep the military in practice, occupied, and paying for itself, many of their troops become state sponsored mercenaries. Ikari is different because it's an independent organization. After writing all that I just came to the thought that maybe Domaru Ronin could join Druze.
     
  14. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    I am perfectly satisfied with a Druze/Arslan/ABH/Brawler/Clipper- Core plus a Wolfgang/Druze/ABH- Haris (choose loadouts according to mission), filled up with 2 Hunzakuts, a Bashi, a mix of Fugazis, Peacemaker and Pathfinders and perhaps a Brawler or Brawler/Valerya-Duo.

    More HI in DBS also sounds nice to me but right now everyone is complaining about not being able to fit any Druze in the lists. So how on earth should fit some 35+ points HI in our lists???
     
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  15. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    That's a good point.
    But also a part of another problem that was being mentioned before, that is, DBS having no cheap Fireteam fillers / cheap Regular Orders / basic Light Infantry. The Druze equivalent to Fusileirs / Zhanshi / Alguaciles / Ghilim - 10-ish-point Regular unit with significant AVA and Fireteam capability.
    Brawlers are too expensive for that. I mean, I can accept paying 19pts for a (really mediocre) Doc or Engineer, or 27 for a MSV L2 Sniper etc. Especially, if I have hardly any other choice on these. But those are specialists. 15pts for a basic Brawler is simply too expensive to get the job done. Authorized Bounty Hunters (with their cheapest loadout at 12pts) could do, in a pinch.. but they are AVA 2.

    Druze - being in 24-31pts range - are indeed difficult to fit into a list in such a situation.
     
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  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Could you post a typical list you use? I'm always curious to see what other druze players are fielding!

    I can fit the likes of Wolfgang or Arslan into the list (although would really like it if Arslan was just a druze for core team composition). So I think my bare minimum wish list is a mid 30's heavy infantry who can fulfill the pointman or door kicker role.
    Which on the uninspired end is easily a few Wu Ming or Brigada profiles. But EASILY could be something really interesting if they want to stretch the point formula in the way they do with Asawira of Evaders (fuck me they are optimised profiles) could get something really interesting. Even a hortlak like profile with some slight equipment changes is pretty close to what I'd like in Druze.

    Sidebar - god damn arslan is expensive. NWI without shock immune really should be cheaper/ NWI with shock immune should be more expensive.
     
  17. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Just make Druze Shock Immune and NWI. If an Evader costs 24pts then the Druze can too. Make them Wildcards, brawler and ABH cores. Do interesting things! Bring back the Spitfire model as an AP Spitfire. Give the HMG msv 1. Make them interesting and the defining models of DBS.
     
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  18. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Comparing anything to Evaders is pretty grim reading. I cannot fathom how they cost what they do.
     
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  19. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    GROUP 1 7 / 2
    ARSLAN (Lieutenant) MULTI Rifle, Light Shotgun / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    DRUZE Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31)
    CLIPPER DRONBOT Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
    BRAWLER Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 16)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12)
    KAMEEL (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
    PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    BASHI BAZOUK (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)

    GROUP 2 5 / 1
    WOLFGANG AMADEUS MULTI Rifle(+1B), Chain-colt / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 35)
    DRUZE (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Pitcher, D-Charges ( ) / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    PEACEMAKER Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 26)
    AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 4)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I played this list a while ago on TTS against Aleph SSS Sectorial in Quadrant Control Mission. Table was quite dense with lots of 2 storey buildings on the whole table.
    Druze HMG took out Atalanta, a Hunzakut killed Hippolyta in mid-air while super-jumping, Diomedes was able to take out Fugazi, Peacemaker, plus Bounty Hunter and Druze KHD before being killed by Wolfgang.
     
  20. dijit

    dijit Active Member

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    This...
     
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