I dunno. A Grenzer swaps the extra wound to gain MSV1 and non-hackable compared to e.g. Jujak (close enough in points). This isn't a bad trade-off, even if it makes neither good. Ditto Wildcats that optimises stats a bit more than Grenzers or Jujak. The primary area where HI are good in a barebones sense is where they can take advantage of their somewhat lowered price without exposing themselves to hacking or E/M - so paying SWC is when they start being "pretty good", and SWC is the "premium" currency so... Nadhir are LI, so Hundun doesn't have anything you can't get on LI, they're MI just because ;) TBH, I think the best mechanical definition for MI in the current state of the game is either ARM 2+ or Shock Immunity, but without a quantifiable unique feature similar to HI's vulnerability to E/M they might as well drop the definition - any mission or classified that calls out MI so far has felt inorganic and more like pandering to players who feels their HI are bad than actual game balance adjustment.
This is right on the money Second wound or its analogue (NWI, NWI+shockimmune) has always been a premium piece of unit profile, because it lets you say "go again" or reliably tank a template/normal roll shot, which is especially important in situations like turn 3 run to the objective - while putting a lot of gear and 1-2 points of armor on a fusilier often means a deep sigh when it croaks to a stray combi hit or a template from a 6pt bum.
I hate that link team so much. That pretty much epitomizes what is wrong with links right now. Corregidor should not have got basically wild card everything. I've sure noticed in N4 how dirt cheap heavy rocket launchers are now. On many units its one of the cheapest if the the cheapest option. But I'm definitely in the camp MI need some help and a whole bunch of units should probably be reclassified into them. Frontoviks come to mind. (A sneakier flavor of Briscards) I wouldn't call the Grunts a LI. They are among the cheapest MI, but also still slogging that 4-2 movement, and terrible WIP, just to cover the cost of that extra armor. I really liked the extra 4 inch deployment they had for a few ITS seasons. A free upgrade to Dogged on MI could help some with staying power. Not a guaranteed extra wound but enough to make them harder to just shift away defensively, or give them the ability to push through and grab an objective or kill an extra opponent. Toying with ideas on changes to dogged or hybrid skill between dogged and regeneration to give MI for some more umph. Give them a (PH or PH -3) test at the end of turn to stay standing. Maybe if you want to make it a little more different to regeneration maybe use a WIP test instead. Less reliable than HI but still often able to hold the line. Another simpler solution is more NWI and much less shock immune. But I'm not really for this one.
MI expensive and bad across the board? Gotta tell that to the Grunts, lol. Or the Scots Guard. Or those shitty Tankhunters, lmao :D
You just listed 3 troops people either don't touch that often to begin with or are the only choice in class for what's probably one of the worst Sectorials out there. Not convinced if you want to argue for or against MI, could you clarify? :D
all units except for wildcat hrl are already in your every list, you just miss on reactive b2 jaguars (who still can group in an independendent haris) and 2w aro piece in exchange for ruining enemy smoke on red orders agreed to be honest, HRLs have always been undercosted, which makes it a great active/reactive weapon
Just because all the parts are in the same list, doesn't make combining them into a Core Link the natural conclusion. That link is all over the place in so many ways. And as you already mention yourself - there's some very natural, easy and straightforward upgrades available. Wouldn't want an Evader cheerleading in the back, wouldn't want my prime Hacker and Lt up the field. Wouldn't want to rely on a Wildcat to do a job a 120 points link does less impressive than a 100 points Link. HRLs are nice to have until you want quality (most likely to stop a quality Active piece). Sniper wins more FTF rolls, FB/ML wrecks more face. At a cost, but if you field a Core Link to enable a single ARO piece, might as well consider making it count. If that Link works for you, more power to ya. Not my cup of tea for the reasons above, and maybe that hinders my appreciation for MI as a result. At this current point in time I'm relatively certain my stance on it wasn't a hot take and if you feel like it is, I'm operating under the assumption it's not, so take it with a grain of salt and feel free to disagree.
They all got a pretty big discount into N4, was looking at N3 USARF Marauders and the basic rifle+heavy flamethrower was 21 points and the HRL was 26 In N4 they are now 22 and 23 points respectively. That's a substantial discount. Though from looking in other units modt didn't get as big of a difference. But many like the Wildcats also got other improvements.
People don't make Grunt based links in USARF? People don't use Tankhunter CoC / Autocannon? People don't make Scots' based Harises / use the Camo NCOs? We play in really different metas then.
I'd say I mostly agree with you there. Well any "Grunt" links will have like 2-3 characters in it and a Minuteman. [Though I've had some luck with a trio of snipers and Minuteman Missile Launcher] I really like the Scot's haris in Kosmoflot. Especially the NCO ones. Though them getting built in mimetism really helped make them a lot more usable. but much as I do like the team, I often struggle to find the points for them. For the TankHunter, those are definitely the two I take. Though the autocannon one comes out very rarely and more of a gimmick. But the CoC one gets used fairly frequently. nice to have the hidden Lt backup and he's a pretty good final turn objective grabber in a tight game. Outside of USARF the rest of the Ariadnan MI are pretty niche. And mostly fall into the problems listed about being too expensive and fragile. I think most of Ariadna have their MI look much better than they really are, because their HI are just slightly more elite MI with an EM weakness, and pretty much all S2 exceptions to this are in TAK and Kosmo because I'm rambling I'll just list off my thoughts on a few of those units Briscards really got an upgrade with the MSV changes. MRRF even has two units that can drop smoke now. Though they are really riding the bridge between Light and Medium Infantry with only 2 ARM and 0 BTS and no models over 25pts. Moblots got the unique distinction of being the only linkable Ariadnan unit with BTS, an upgrade that at least made them unique amongst their crappy fake HI contemporaries. But really looking at their stat lines and these guys look like what would be a premium toolbox MI in other factions. [very close to the Vargar] and still in need of as much help as all the other MI I'd probably say USARF is among the gold standard for usable MI. Grunt's obviously due to their dirt cheap staying power, and single insane infiltrating profile. I think the Marauder end up being a solid all rounder, with forward deployment and dogged. MSV on the platforms that make the most use of it, access to AP mines and all on a pretty good price. I'd say they are most lacking in the specialist area with only one option. [Rosie and the UR do help shore that up a bit, but it's still a point against them.] It's kinda insulting they are more resilient than the HI Minutemen. I always hear good things about Mavericks, but I've never taken them, due to my extreme dislike for pretty much all bike units. A unique unit in that they can supply their own smoke for their MSV. Good potential trip with the shotgun profile And of course the Minutemen. another premium cost MI playing at being a HI. Though if I had to compare these guys to anything it's that they are slightly higher stat Chaska Longarm. They got a great selection of weapons but are way to expensive and fragile to leverage it. Only getting to join grunt links really did anything to help make them more usable. There has been talk at length at how to fix these guys, but they suffer all the same problems as MI plus a few more, so they might as well get lumped in with them
As a Yu Jing and Tohaa player, I looked at my options and it seems pretty mixed. Some units suck and some don't, but that's not exclusive to MI. You may be able to attribute some of the problems of specific units to traits that are typically associated with MI, but that doesn't mean other units aren't overcosted for the same reason outside of MI.
So, all the good Tohaa MI have two wounds, and the bad Tohaa MI has one wound. That's consistent with my theory. As for Grunts, well yeah, a 10-point MI is good. Pretty much anything would be good at 10 points. Other than Grunts and Thorakitai, the cheapest MI out there start at 19 points for Ariadna and 20+ points for everyone else. A real MI costs literally twice as much as a Grunt or more.
This is my main issue. You pay twice as much points, for not near as much as twice as much utility. Generally the difference between ARM 1 and ARM 3 isn't that great, on a D20 it's a 10% better chance of surviving a hit. Yeah most MI has slightly better stats, but again a point or two higher BS doesn't make a huge difference. CC makes even less difference, because if you're in CC with a MI it usually not a CC of your choice and against a CC monster who's just going to rip you from head to anus anyway. The equipment bloat is situational (Druze have both a viral pistol and a chain colt for close work for example). The special equipment, such as the a fore mentioned Druze's X-visor, Sekban's NCO and wildcard, MI with MSV, makes a difference, but paying for that on top of paying for better stats just makes MI feel points ineffective, even of on paper they may be priced fairly. And it generally, as has been mentioned, comes down to survivability. That single wound doesn't seem to pay back it's investment. Muyib's 'dogged' makes them tougher to remove, but with all the shock ammo around, not too tough, perhaps MI gaining 'dogged' as befits their veteran status might be a solution?
Muyib are amazing, though. Clear example of that you don't have to have two wounds and/or mimetism and/or MSV2 at that price point to be good.
I understand that sentiment, but in my opinion it's less that they don't fit the game well, and more that they don't fit few of the preconceptions people have about the game. One of them is the belief that survivability is king; the other is the tendency to min-max the army list in an effort to "solve" the game. MI - and elite LI - are indeed more fragile than HI (with many exceptions, thanks to the proliferation of NWI+SI), and they tend to be toolboxes, which doesn't fit the playstyles built around choosing units specialized and thus more efficient in specific roles. But such playstyles are only part of the game, there are too many variables to solve it by some equation - though I know that delving into probabilities can be fun, and I find it a useful tool as well - and some of us prefer the versatility MI can bring to the table. I'm a PanO player, slowly expanding into more of the factions' sectorials. I'm using Bagh-Mari and Akalis, because they allow me to do things a bit differently than, say, ORCs, Montesas, or Nagas. I'm using Black Friars. I will be using Bolts and I will be using Vargars, because they give me some options and tools that other units don't. Their relative fragility is a drawback, but one mitigated to a point by N4 changes to crits. To sum it up, Wounds are an important attribute, but not the only one to look for.
Pan-o is a bit of a special case, pretty much all of its MI and elite LI are amazing and do powerful things. Like, other factions get Bao or Rodoks. Pan-O gets Nisse or Karhu.
It seems like the MI's thing is having more stuff (skills,equipment) than LI. If this more stuff happens to synergize with itself, we get a "good" MI. If it doesn't synergize (usually the case) we get "meh" MI, a "bloated" one. The solution would be either to make sure that extra stuff on MI always synergizes. Which would be difficult and very constraining. How about "better stuff" instead of "more stuff". You know cause they supposedly are better trained, more veteran and elite? MI stocks would shoot right up if no LI ever had mimetism, NWI, Veteran*, CoC or Lieutenant option (why the hell does Intruder take orders from a mfcking moderator anyway... though I'm sure someone gonna "well akshully" me on that one). *Morats excepted of course. Though anyway with A. removal of 4-2 B. elite LI (deva etc ) existing C. discount MI (grunts etc) existing ....the distinction between LI and MI is moot anyway. In truth in the game we have: 1 bare bones LI (1W, no significant special skills) 2 specialised LI (1W, a significant special skill) 3 synergized LI (1W, a number of significant special skills and equipment that synergizes) 4 bloated LI (1W, a number of significant special skills and equipment that does not synergize) 2&3 and mostly 4 are sometimes classified as MI instead of LI in the army app, but it hardly changes anything.
