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Getting the most out of medium infantry

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by dijit, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. dijit

    dijit Active Member

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    Medium infantry get a lot of bad press. They're not as cheap as LI, and only a fraction cheaper than a lot of HI without the durability. They have had one of the big issues resolved in N4, namely their slow movement. However, it seems like there's still a good way until they're back in the warmth again.

    Many of you must play MI regularly, so the question is, how do you get the most out of them? In the lists I build I often feel like I handicap myself a bit with MI.
     
  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Step one: Be Ariadna.
     
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  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I don't think that's the case. The forum consensus seems to be that most MI are pretty unusable. And I don't recall seeing many of them at the table.

    The exceptions are specific MI wildcards that bring something particular to a fireteam without dragging up the price of the whole team. Yara Haddad, Muyib HRL, Bagh-Mari Sniper, Black Friar, and the like.
     
  4. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Well, I play Tohaa, and that means I have access to the Taquel Officers. Which are probably one of the best "MI" in the game.

    Most factions are not quite so blessed.
     
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  5. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    I play QK.

    We have the djan msv2 hmg shooting thru smoke option, but i rarely take that option or that link. At 29-34pts they are in ballpark of my old bakunin riot HI link.

    What i do play is MI Sekban NCO wildcard. That is the best i get out of MI.

    I tried druze and kts links but with few true wildcard that link with these i don't feel like spending 136pts on a druze core when i can take cheaper LI core supplemented by more troop (respecting the 15 order limit).

    Kaplan is a bit better. Varied weapon. Can take wild bill in addition to leila/rahman. Mimetism -3 is nice to have in addition of ARM 2 and shock immune.
     
  6. dijit

    dijit Active Member

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    I play Hassassin, QK, Steel Phalanx and Druze.

    All of them have MI. Hassassin's Muyibs are wildcards and therefore can go in any link, but they are expensive. QK's Sekban er great, but becuase they're wildcards. Muyibs, Sekban, Djs, Druze and Kaplin are all in the high 20s in points. What I don't get is SP's Thoraktai with combi rifle is then 16pts. They are worth taking. It seems most MI are way overcosted, MI in the low 20s points seems more appropriate.
     
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  7. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    The base profiles for most MI are already in the low 20s. They're probably appropriately costed for what they do, they just don't really have a role the way that the game is structured.

    LI are good as cheap orders, or fireteam filler, or the occasional utility piece like the Ghulam Doctor or a random hacker.

    HI are good because they're strong enough to function as solo fighters. They also make good fireteam wildcards of course. It's even occasionally worth building a fireteam of HI, because although it's expensive, you get so much survivability.

    An MI isn't strong enough to work as a solo fighter like an HI. They can be fine as solo utility pieces, but then you're wasting the points spent on their MI level armor - there's usually a cheaper LI option (e.g. Muyib doctor vs. Ghulam doctor). They aren't good in an MI fireteam because you're paying MI points for the whole team, without the survivability gain you get from an HI fireteam. So their only role ends up being as a wildcard where you get the benefits of an MI in a fireteam, without the cost.

    We'll see if anything changes when CB reworks the fireteam rules, whenever that ends up being.
     
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  8. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    In Vanilla factions, I find myself using MI mostly as AD troops (Ragik/Tigers) and utility profiles that excel due to a particular set of skills/equipment (Yara Haddad, Saladin, Lei Gong, Hundun, Daoying). Some of these are without alternative in their respective factions and well worth the middling point bracket.
     
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  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Heh, agreed, and a lot of those are good despite being MI, not because of being MI. Imagine how amazing Saladin would be if he was just a line infantry with Strategos and Lt(+1CT) and no other skills, and priced accordingly. The MI bloat is what makes him balanced.

    Yara is sort of an exception, although she's also used primarily as a fireteam wildcard, she's just good enough to still be ok solo. And even she would probably be a better solo piece if she was just a cheap LI with an AP MMR and MSV2.
     
  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I agree with this notion. I must admit I have some difficulties pointing out what exactly makes a MI in N4 and if that sort of categorization means anything besides "LI with additional gadgets" or "HI with one W". You have stuff like Crushers and Sombras who are functionally very close to HI, without the drawback of being hackable, so the lines are somewhat blurry at this point.

    Maybe MI is really just what you pointed out in Saladin: a balancing mechanic that adds some bloat to an otherwise optimized unit in order to keep it somewhat in check.
     
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  11. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    FTFY
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    MI aren't a fraction cheaper than HI, unless by a "fraction" you actually mean "two thirds as expensive". You're comparing a fully geared MI to a barebones HI to reach that conclusion. And probably forgetting that hacking is an actual thing that actually needs to be factored into the pricing.

    That said.

    Once you get to the mid 20s in price (for the unit's converted combi cost), the unit stops being throw-away and succumbing to a stray crit or flubbed roll happens a lot more for units without an extra wound to soak the damage. I don't think this is so much a mechanical fault of medium infantry as it is a consequence of list building.

    P.s. there's several "light" infantry that really should be medium, for example Kamau or Zhanying. The only real difference between a light and medium infantry at the moment is that sometimes medium infantry has a discount that's probably a relic since all medium infantry were 4-2.
     
  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    A few years ago I would've said that muyibs were one of the few MI units that were indeed somewhere in the middle not only in terms of cost, but also stuff they bring.

    The caveat was, of course, that they were actually LI at the time, and that was probably one of the reasons they didn't suck really bad.

    It's a surprise for me to see they actually run around with MI label now.
     
  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    First thing is to avoid DTWs.

    Problem there being that N4 gave DTWs to pretty much everyone.

    So you're fucked.
     
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  15. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Dunno OP, Proxy Mk5 and Grenzer sniper look good
     
  16. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I cannot really agree with this statement. First of all, there's hardly a forum consensus regarding anything, there's always at least a sizeable minority with a different opinion than the rest. Secondly, MIs as a class were always considered to be in a weird spot, to long for Dick, to short for Richard, but - save from a few specific cases - hardly unusable. And finally, they're too diverse a category, and judging them in such broad terms and in their entirety is bound to be false.

    Some of them are bad, either because they're badly designed, because they're decent but overshadowed by better choices within their army, or because they were good before, but weren't properly balanced to account for rule changes between edition. Others, however, are perfectly fine or outstanding.

    One thing I'd really like to see is some difference between LI and MI. As was mentioned above, the line between them got really blurry.
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    MI have a tough start before they can be good.
    N4 HI got cheaper and a lot of them also got 6-2 upgrades, better at CC, indirect Frenzy Upgrades by making Impetuous better and ofc Crit changes going the way of Multiwound models with a decent level of ARM.
    As a baseline it's good to have HI traits, Hacking or not.

    MI on the other hand got no change in price and those who didn't already have it got the free 4-4 MOV update (which HI got on top of a substantial price drop).

    N3->N4 in a vaccuum they are fine, but relative to other troops classes they didn't make the same baseline gains on HI, Warbands (improved Impetuous) or LI (15 slot limit helps making them more attractive compared to cheap Irregulars).

    Compare a very baseline HI and MI
    HI - pretty good out of the box, more features are good, other than linkability not required.
    MI - not great. Needs multiple upgrades to see a table.
    3+ to be accurate, you can pick any 3 with some synergy out of the following list and odds are the resulting MI is pretty good (at least in a Sectorial). 4+ without Synergy.
    Vis Mods (Marksmanship/MSV/Mimetism - counting as 1 "check" each), Wildcard, NWI+Shock Immunity, Mobility Skills, Link access for Sixth Sense + MSV defensive synergy, desireable Skill/equipment choice (Camo, Jammer, Firewall, Deployable,...) compounding Profile and/or Link value.

    Taking a very superficial look at a couple Nomad troops for reference:
    Sombra? Great. All the upsides of a HI and a Camo trooper without the downsides, checks like 5 boxes at once where you'd need 3 for a good trooper.
    Grenzer? Meh. The only one that makes the cut is the Sniper thanks to stacking Link Bonus, BS13, MSV1, MMS and linkability with Linetroopers for easy access to Sixth Sense for extra MSV1 synergy, only the MSR checks 3 boxes on the "how to make a MI good" list and it's very easy to tell.
    Wildcat? Falls short. Unlike Grenzers you can't average their costs down by slotting them into Linetroopers, so they end up outclassed by troops who can do that or min maxed solo pieces. We're not far off from Grenzers, but the minor details of weapon choices and linkability make the difference between "almost auto pick" and "haven't seen one in N4". They can slip into the "good" category if you can enable their kit by slotting some Wildcards into their Haris.

    The main problem with MI is if the pricetag for their 1W statblock.
    Paying for slightly upgraded baseline stats (above LI CC/BS/PH/WIP/ARM/BTS) for a 100% pricehike over a 10 point trooper, needs several multipliers to make that investment worth it over alternatives.
     
    #17 Teslarod, Sep 20, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
  18. AssaultUnicorn

    AssaultUnicorn KTS is the best unit

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    I play Dahshat, QK, and WhiteCo. Kaplans are good enough thanks to their Mimetism, and Djanbazan/Nisse HMG get a lot out of shooting through smoke, making them pretty decent at gunfighting. Brawlers in Dahshat get the benefit of getting a full Core with 4 Bounty Hunters which makes them a dirt-cheap and pretty effective defensive link.

    As far as the link options are concerned, the cheaper the better. If we're talking solo units – they have to have some special equipment and skills that are rare to come by on all other units.
     
  19. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    [​IMG]
     
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  20. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Sure, there are exceptions to every rule. We've talked about some of them above. But they do seem like exceptions to me. The hallmark of an MI would be: 1W, 2-3 ARM, BS12-13, a lot of skills an equipment, ~20-30 points. In fact, IIRC the fluff description of MI used to be that they carry more equipment than a LI and that's why they only moved 4-2.

    I don't think that MI are badly designed, badly balanced, or just overshadowed. Rather, I think that they're properly designed and costed for what they do, but what they do doesn't fit the game well. The game favours paying a premium for durable HI to do your fighting, and putting the rest of the skills you need on cheap LI. Paying 25 points for a flimsy unit with a variety of skills is just asking your opponent to easily kill that unit and take away all those points and skills in one shot.

    Bagh Mari, Uma, Infirmarers, Nisse, Vargar, Ye Mao, Observance, Wildcats, Rodoks, Yaogats, Djanbazan, Druze, Govads, Muyibs, Kaplans, Sekban, Zhayedan, Briscards, Marauders all meet that description, just on a quick scan through Army. Maybe I'm biased because so many of those are Haqq units, but it certainly seems to me to be the norm for MI.

    The exceptions are:
    - MI that are effectively LI in that they don't have skill bloat (Grunts, Thorakitai).
    - MI that are effectively HI due to 2W (Armand, Yadu, Sombra, etc.)
    - MI with a unique skill you can't get on an LI (Combat jump troops, Yara, Saladin/Sun Tze, Hundun, Daoying, Tankhunters/Scots Guard, Scylla, etc.)
    - Wildcards.

    So yeah, absolutely there are MI that are perfectly fine or outstanding, but it still seems to me that they fall into specific exceptions and are good despite being MI, not because of being MI. I don't think anyone engaged in list-building is saying "I want to pay for a lot of skills and some armor on a 1W model." Rather, the list-building logic goes "I want this particular skill (strategos/camo/marksmanship/super hacking/whatever) and I'm willing to pay for skill and armor bloat to get it because I can't find it on an LI."

    Except... Bolts? Maybe the only MI good enough to build a whole fireteam out of them?

    As for forum consensus, I could be wrong but my impression is that the MI problem is just about the only thing the forums have ever been able to agree on.
     
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