Full disclosure: I am posting this in Aleph, Nomads, and O-12. What do people think about hackers in N4 and there use? How common is firewall in your local Meta? Do you see it as a problem or have you figured out a way around it? Which hackers do you take an in what numbers? Are hackers in links with fire wall a problem for you?
the only problematic one is nomads/corregidor with repeater net morans, everywhere else non-khd is either a liablity or a tax (in list as a one-off) to do full deck of cards reliably because people know better than to use Tags in serious games nobody takes firewall tinbots specifically, usually they are free on already effective profiles (Shang Ji, Santiago) they are not a problem if you dont rely on hackable units
Sounds to me like your answer is if you ignore hacking being a thing and the topic of the question then you should have no problem with tin bots. I know several that take tinbot specifically because hackers vs non firewall units are viable. Killed Andromeda and annoying solos with guided missiles, some after spotlighting them the in the enemy turns, and stopped Mandoza in his tracks all with hackers. Also HD+ with white noise is great utility.
I think O-12 have a pretty good hacking game along with white company, Almost rivalling nomads in terms of available repeaters, Aleph have really good hackers but not the same level of pitcher network to support them, so its not one of their main strengths. Personally I feel more comfortable with links that have tinbots and will happily take them as at worst they come with another hacking device or a boarding shotgun, something that is really good in a link when none of your dice can miss in good range so I never I feel like im missing out, A great way to tear down a 5 man link is with a cheeky repeater and if they don't have a tinbot your trinity will fry brains even if they do have sixth sense their strength is in their shooting not their hacking at that point, I never leave home without at least one killer hacker of some kind but I really love the idea of hacking in infinity, That pesky Heavy or Rem bugging you? shoot a pitcher beside it then hack it or leave it until their turn to deal with any move they make gets you a free hack even from your basic 15pt hacker hiding at the back of the field I think having hacking superiority may not be the easiest anymore with the abundance of tinbots but it sure is fun as hell, Sure you can avoid using hackable units but everything is hackable now in some way or another, Its just something you have to be mindful over and even a spotlighted camo troop may need to spend an extra to camo itself when it didn't need to and if they don't camo you ignore their mimitisim , Now with the 15 order cap most armies will have heavy infantry of some kind so you can get a lot of use out of even one pitcher and a cheap hacker, Essentially its another option in the nomads tool kit that we can use.
I still think CB is not good at making hacking fun or balanced. Since they are incapable of doing these two important things, IMO they should've just made it simple. No programs, just have "hack" as attack or ARO that does different things depending on if you are hackable or not, something like IMM on everyone, if hackable then you get ISOLATED in addition. This would make hackers as simple as doctors or engineers basically. Easy to balance, easy to play with or against, makes games faster, still not fun.
This seems interesting, kinda like the reverse version of E/M ammunition. But... Wouldn't it be too boring? Aside from the gaming and balance, I would love some fluffy codenames on each protocols.
Yes it would. I agree completely. But it is low effort and easy to balance fix. And since CB is not interested in putting effort into balancing, I only bother suggesting low effort fixes to their mess.
I think hacking is more or less fine. I don't see it all the time, it can be effective if you lean into it, but you can get punished for leaning into it too, depending on your opponents force composition, or by leaning on one trick (eg guided) too much that doesn't always work or can be taken away. Tinbot firewall is ok. Putting it in a link has its own disadvantages and advantages, like links in general. And I think people who don't think TAGs are competitive don't get stomped by Avatars enough ;)
IMHO hacking at the moment has only 2 big problems : - Trinity has only KHD program doesn't work, damage it's to low, we need another killer program, something with B2 or 1 and more damage; - If you exclude spotlight there are only 2 programs to use against HI, if the HI is veteran you have only 1 program. I think that are to few option to have against the most common hackable troop type; Spotlight has been the best news for hacking, at least you can use your hacker in some way against list that doesn't have hackable target. That was the thing that made Hacking better, eliminating the all or nothing situation. IMHO Hacking has always suffered from a design point. CB want Hacking to have the same effect of weapon on the field while I think hacking should be completely something else. In my view hacking it's all about sabotage. Imagine if you could use your hackers to attack the enemy list while the enemy hackers try to stop you from accesing their list. If you succed you can discover Hidden information, reveling camo or Para on the field or attacking the enemy command structure reducing the order reserve of your opponent the next turn. I think that could be cool mechanic that could work wonder in infinity thanks to Hidden information. I know that just wishlisting, but that is my vision of what hacking should really be.
Killer hackers aren't good enough. -6 Tinbots are too good. If spotlight exists the way it currently does, the classified that requires just one spotlight should be removed from the deck. Morans should probably be nerfed in some way (and should probably be AVA 1 in vanilla).
Killer Hackers are still good and have relevance with attacking enemy hackers. Tinbot (-6) is too good? Usually it comes on expensive models so it does cost something to bring in a list. Spotlight is far better now and actually makes hacking relevant in the game, unlike how it was in N3 where it hardly ever came up. Morans are good, but nowhere near broken., and definitely not needing a nerf. There are plenty more models in the game that are more egregious.
I find killer hackers extremely relevant, not just for killing enemy hackers but also for Cybermask, which can be super valuable (especially for otherwise non marker state troopers), and also because it is often on profiles which have other useful abilities where being a specialist and able to eliminate opposing hackers are key too (eg on troopers who have deployment skills or are strike pieces). Not being able to always easily eliminate hackers protected by specific defences like tinbot including links without much risk is a pretty reasonable part of the strengths and weaknesses of both IMHO.
Combined with Jazz, for example, it's more or less unbeatable in hacking. And specifically, unbeatable by killer hackers. When you skeet repeaters everywhere and a KHD gets in that repeater zone, you should be sweating. Currently that's not true, and it's a problem. I disagree, and I don't think the balance consequences of BTS 6-9 hackers, potentially behind -6 tinbots, were thought out very clearly. There should be ways to deal with them via hacking; this used to be KHDs, but no longer. This probably strikes a bit too close to home for Nomads, but it's just how it is. Vanilla factions, in general, should have AVAs on pieces reduced. Making Morans AVA 1 in vanilla would be nice, same with Hecklers. Morans are too strong of a defensive piece for you to be able to cover 34" of the table laterally with them for little to no opportunity cost like in vanilla Nomads.
Moran are strong because Trinity is weak, If KHD would be more effective putting a lot of Repeater on the field would be a risky move. BTS 6 and a -3 Tinbot gives you enough chance to survive, in those cases trying to kill the enemy Hacker seems like a waste of order. I think the game could need a program that shut down repeater and only Engineer can reactivate.
Then you end up with the situation you had in N3 where putting your own repeater net out was a liability to you, so it was dead game space, because no one is going to do that. Killer hackers just trumping normal hackers kills normal hacking as a part of the game design. N4 hacking is much more usable and interesting than N3 hacking as a consequence of not doing that, even though it is streamlined, at least when you bring the right defences. You pay for Tinbots to defend against hacking, that they can be effective in doing so is fine and works fine. Nomad hackers are good at hacking, not a big surprise - working as designed. They are also pretty squishy and can be dealt with in many ways other than trying to take them on at their strength. I don't shoot at a Jotum in cover with a combi and complain about it either. There are definitely hackers that are more favoured against Jazz behind a tinbot with Trinity in their active than doing that. Jazz + Tinbot + Moran x 2 is the same pts as a Jotum. Don't mind the idea of bringing back Blackout (shuts down comms equipment inc repeaters, is an ARO) as a Hacking program though.
That wasn't the case in N3 at all. People put out repeaters all the time. There were just times to do it and times to not. Hell no it doesn't. I saw AHDs being used by successful players in N3 with a decent amount of frequency. The idea that KHDs scared hackers away from N3 is a myth. They're not designed to be head-and-shoulders better than all other factions, and they're not designed to be impervious to KHDs - or if they are, the designers cocked it up. The problem is that the K1 combi or AP HMG hacking program doesn't exist, and it should with BTS 6-9 hackers hiding behind -6 tinbots in the game. The KHD is an anti-hacker hacking device which doesn't do what it's supposed to do, to the detriment of the game. There's been a consistent problem with a contingent of the playerbase in N4 lacking the critical thinking skills to understand the difference between what *is* and what *should be* - and yes I'll complain about KHDs not killing enemy hackers when that's what they're supposed to do. Doing it in a game when I know it doesn't work would be my fault, but the fact that it doesn't work is a failure of the design team. Sure, and it has a lot of utility. I see it in every Corregidor list, and I think I've seen 1 Jotum in N4. There's a reason for that. If they made it so it could be used on deployed repeaters, that'd be great.
While I have complaints about the current hacking meta, and I agree with @Hecaton to a large extent about how hacking functioned in N3 and how the lack of proper bunker buster weapon equivalents lead to some relatively unfun interactions with high BTS hackers and how Veteran throws in a really dumb binary on/off mechanic into the mix ultimately I think this is all arguing over symptoms rather than the cause. I find the real cause is CB streamlined the way hacking worked too much when they should've done the opposite and expanded on it. Yes yes, streamlining things wasn't inherently bad and it suited part of their goals of making things accessible. Unfortunately that was at opposites with one of their other goals of N4 which was to broaden the scope of hacking to make it more consistently impactful so you didn't run into the games of "lul I'm playing Ariadna or an unhackable list congrats on your wasted points and SWC". When I say I think they should've expanded hacking I don't mean necessarily make the mechanics more complex or add another sub game mechanic, I'm saying they literally should've just expanded hacking. Make more armies hack. No faction should be without legitimate hacking options and that includes Ariadna. The fact that Ariadnans can't hack makes no fucking sense whatsoever in a narrative sense, they're sitting on Teseum they can clearly afford to set up hacking schools or buy people with the correct skill sets. For a faction that can't match the raw high tech production of economic juggernauts like Pan-O and Yu Jing, learning how to hack would've been the fucking number one priority for an underdog faction looking for a force equaliser. So everybody hacks now. Rather than doing away with Defensive hacking CB should've unfucked it so it actually worked as a tool to defend your army, the regular Hacking Device should've stayed instead of deleting it and renaming the Assault Hacking Device (I'm 95% sure they did this to get morons to actually take AHDs. Like @Hecaton says people used them successfully at high levels, the bigger issue was CB sticking it on shit profiles that people kept taking then complaining it was useless). The supportware on the HD should've been deleted and left to EVO hackers only. If they were going to delete any hacking device type it should've been the HD+, just roll it into the HD. So now we've got: Hacking Devices Assault Hacking Devices Killer Hacking Devices EVO Hacking Devices Defensive Hacking Devices As @Tourniquet is fond of referring to Hacking, it's essentially space magic. These are your schools of space magic your hackers wizards can specialise in. To build factional identity, the amount of space magic you're allowed to access is limited. Ariadna might be heavily focused in Defensive and Assault hacking, Yu Jing might be almost entirely invested in Defensive except for their Ninja related shit which can be Killer hackers wizards, Aleph is big on EVO magic, meanwhile Nomads get easy access to everything because they are functionally High Elf wizards. We could've still had some streamlining as well. Removing random rare programs like Icebreaker, Maestro and Suckerpunch still could've totally happened, and just had the profile specific MODs attached to simulate the same end effect where it was warranted.
I do not think that you find a solution to any problems relating to hacking certain hackers being too good by adding more hacking. All this does is move the goalposts and maintain the same factions as being problematic. If a device needs to exist that efficiently counters repeaters, this should not be done through hacking, but by the factions that have something to protect from hacking. The problem with this device is that it can't be Deactivator because Nomads are not only market leaders in hacking, they are also market leaders in engineers and one of the factions that really need this device really doesn't have very good options with this regard. Unless, of course, Deactivator is made very rare among Nomads and gets added to a bunch of Pan-O units that may not even need to be Engineers. The basic design philosophy would be: a hacking faction should solve problematic hackers by attacking hackers while the non-hacking factions would solve the problem by efficiently Disabling repeaters. (As a side note, such a device would also mean you can remove Tinbot: Firewall which also removes most protection that hackers have from killer hackers)
