Nomad TAGs are Different?

Oh and further note the Gorgos has a peripheral which typically disqualifies the unit from fireteams anyway.

 

Lol, I forgot about the context of it being Tohaa which uses triads.

As for Ariadna it is in MRRF, they can take Anacondas with fireteam duo. I am hoping they also they update kosmofloat to include the anacondas once they release the TAG box as part of their code one releases. Maybe kosmofloat requisitions them from MRRF or the MRRF volunteered them since the anacondas have been incorporated into the MRRF command structure, but I digress.

 

Hello Everyone, I wish to thank you for the discussion. It has been interesting, but I plan for this to be my last post in this thread.

At the insistence of my local Warcor I will be tagging HellLois for this post. MR./Ms. @HellLois I understand that as a CB Employee there will be information you are privy too and perhaps restricted in what you can say in an open forum, at this juncture I merely ask you read this post.

Looking at TAGs in N4 across factions, and comparing them to N3 TAGs, there are several visible trends in design.

1) A decrease of the SWC cost of the HRMC. In N3 it was 2 SWC and in N4 it is 1.5 SWC, specifically on the Zeta, Dragoes, and Overdron. Furthermore if I may point out that the Yan Huo has both a multi-HMG and an HRMC profile both of which are also 1.5 SWC, the same as Multi-HMG TAGs and HRMC equipped TAGs which shows that the SWC cost does not deviate merely for moving a gun from an HI to a TAG.

2) Several TAGs that did not have courage in the previous edition gained courage in this edition. My two go to examples are the Guijia and Magariba Guard both of which gained courage, the latter is ironic considering it was Example 2 for failing a guts roll in the N3 rulebook, but I digress. Currently All but 5 TAGs have either courage or religious in N4.

3) Barebones Main Line Battle Tags (Multi-HMG, S7/8(the Magariba), Armor 8. Basically the conceptual tanks, i.e. Squallo, Guijia, Magariba, and Raicho) all have fireteam duo options in at least one of their faction sectorials (NCA for the Squallo, MAF for the Raicho, etc). This is really cool as it allows either a duo of big beefy TAGs to advance in lock step, or to bring along a wild card or other unit depending on sectorial for some fascinating tactical options. I hesitate to add the Anaconda to this list as well but if we allow it as a S7 TAG then even Araidna and it’s MRRF can enjoy some hilarious TAG play, and that is to say nothing of what the NA2’s can do.

4) AP Ammo is significantly more prevalent for TAGs now. In particular the Anaconda and Scarface both gained AP Spitfire options. Any TAG that started N3 with a normal HMG now has AP Ammo, with one exception. At present only two TAGs lack AP Ammo, and any TAG that was designed with N4 in mind (Shakush and Blue Wolf) notably have AP Spitfires. I can only conclude proliferation of AP Ammo among TAGs was intended.

5) TAG Pilots and Operators are now meant to be specialists. In N3 there was a distinction between TAG Pilots and TAG Operators, and one clear difference between the two was pilots were specialists and operators were not. In N4 The Anaconda’s operator became a specialist operator without changing it’s label to “Pilot”. As it currently stands there is only a single TAG pilot/operator that is not a specialist of some sort.

I do not disagree with any of these changes, in fact I am quite happy with them across the board. The problem comes from the exceptions, and how they seem to be distributed.

1) The Salamadra has the only 2 SWC HRMC in the game (excluding the NCO option on the Zeta).
2) Of the 5 TAGs without courage or religious, 4 are Nomad TAGs. The remainder is the discontinued Gorgos
3) All “barebones MBTs” can form a fireteam duo except the Lizard
4) The Iguana is the only TAG that had an HMG at the start of N3 that now does not have AP ammo and one of two TAGs without an AP ammo option in the game. The other is the Sphinx which has other significant advantages that could it lacking AP ammo (Mimetism -6, Hidden Deployment, a marker state)
5) The Anaconda Operator became a Specialist but the Iguana Operator did not. I will note there is the Gorgos which has 4 active wounds (3 as the armor 7 TAG and then tansmutes into a 1 wound LI) and that “pilot” keeps the TAG’s AP Spitfire, Flammenspeer, Pulzar, and Viral CCW (he does not skip leg day), so a 4 active wound TAG does not seem to invalidate having a specialist pilot.

I understand there differences between factions and they are intentional. For example, different factions have different gizmokit values for their TAGs (Pan-O and higher tech level phys=13, Yujing and below phys=11. The Raicho is the odd man out at phys=12). However the Nomads missing this many trends in TAG design does not feel like a purposeful decision. Instead it feels like they are N3 TAGs (no guarentee courage/religious, no S7 TAG with Firetam Duo, etc) that came into N4. To paraphrase the Army “Once is an accident, twice is coincidence, three times there is a cause”. Furthermore it isn’t that I am noticing differences between the Nomads and Pan-O, or Nomads and Yu-Jing, but between Nomads and almost any applicable faction.

I don’t want the strongest TAGs in the game, I just want an even playing field for my TAGs.

I know there are two army updates coming up and I do have suggestions if you care to listen.
1) Adjust the HRMC of the Salamandra, or give it NCO like the Zeta
2) Give the nomad TAGs courage or religious. Perhaps the Corregidor TAGs have courage to represent their more militant training while Bakunnin’s Lizard gets Religious to represent their more fervent/punk nature. The Salamandra, your pick on which.
3) In Bakkunin grant the Lizard Fireteam Duo. Perhaps also make it AVA 2 as opposed to the current AVA 1 but that is more debatable due to the GUIJIA being AVA 1 in white banner while still having Fireteam Duo (AVA 2 in Invincible army though)
4) This is where we get into more difficult fixes. I’d suggest an AP Spitfire option for the Iguana, it was good enough for Scarface and the Anaconda so it is good enough for the Iguana. The Anaconda even grants some idea of what the points difference should be tween the Iguana HMG and the Iguana AP Spitfire. No need to change the Operator’s gun as the Anaconda Operator’s gun is independent of his TAG's loadout.
5) Another difficult one I imagine, but make the Iguana Operator a Specialist Operative. Again it was good enough for the Anaconda and HI specialists are quite common now.

Again thank you everyone for the discussion, and thank you to HellLois for your patience and making it this far,
I wish all of you a good day and please stay safe as you game.

 

I have a question and you clearly read my post so If you don't mind I'd like to like your brain. I see this sort of argument a lot and I don't get it. At no point do I bring up the super TAGs of the game by name or alude to them (AVATAR, Marut, Cutter, etc), nor are any of my arguments based around visual mod TAGs. The only TAG with mimetism I mention is the Sphinx and that was for sake of completeness to point out that it and the Iguana are the only two tags in the game don't have an AP ammo option, hardly a complaint about it's power. Instead I mention the MBTs (Squallo, Guijia, Magariba, Raiko, and arguably the anaconda), and the HRMC equipped TAGs (ZETA, Overdron, and Dragoes). It isn't about the super TAGs, it's about the basic ones. So I guess, why that rhetorical strategy? And asking you because you wrote the best post using that strategy.

 

May I ask why you think this? It stuck with me because it does not add up for me. The nomads have the third highest number of TAGs (4), in a game with 9 actively supported factions (I have excluded NA2 and Tohaa, one does not have a central model line and the other is discontinued but legal to play). Only PAN-O and Combined Army have more TAGs than us, and the next two closest competitors (Yu-Jing and Haq) have half as many TAG options. And of those two factions Yu-jing fluctuated from having one TAG, then two TAGs, and then back down to 1 before N4, and Haq only ever had the one TAG till N4 happened and they are still waiting on a sculpt for their new TAG. So we have the third highest number of TAGs (4) in a game with 9 (or 11 factions depending on how you wish to count it), double the number of the TAGs of the next two closest factions each with 2 (of which one is still waiting a sculpt), and every other faction has 1 or 0.

Basically if nomads are not meant to be a TAG faction, then why do they keep giving us TAGs? Why does CB keep investing time in designing the models, producing them, and shipping them if they are not a focus of the faction? Why do we have the best engineers and hackers to support those TAGs, if we are not meant to take them? It is a vexing question. It basically argues that the company has to be willing to dump resources into a play style they do not wish to promote for the faction.

To be clear I do not doubt we have tools, but the argument that TAGs are not a focus for the nomads just does not sound right when looking at the numbers of TAGs available to each faction and how many have purchasable TAG models.

 

I have read the fluff mate.
Several points there: the mining. We have Corregidor, the largest most effective mining organization in the sphere and asteroid mining is lucrative in infinity. Nomads have the resources and raw materials. From the RPG we also know the nomads have a lot of orbitals and production facilities throughout the sphere, we have the factories. As for Money, Tunguska runs the black economy. Nomads have the money for TAGs and the reptile series is explicitly cheap to acquire. The nomads can either purchase or produce the TAGs they need.

As for proportions, the nomads also hold a smaller proportional border than any nation, they aren't sharing a border with yujing hundreds of kilometers wide. They don't need as many TAGs and can afford to go crazy on the few they do need.

But all of this discussion sidesteps my point. CB keeps giving nomads TAGs, but you say TAGs aren't a focus of the faction. So should CB give Ariadna half a dozen hackers next?

This isn't a question of fluff. 1) CB writes the fluff, it can be anything they want it to be. They could blow up Bakkunin tomorrow if they wanted, and they have certainly made sweeping changes before, looking at you JSA and Tohaa. 2) Unless they came up with a replicator, it still costs money to make models, models they need to sell to make more money. Making large pewter models counter to a faction's intended play style and to do it twice to quadruple as often as normal makes no business sense.

 

No one is asking for bleeding edge TAGs. I want TAGs that don't roll guts when they get hit with a combi-rifle, just like every other faction in the game has access to. I want parity with the baseline main battle TAGs of other factions. it isn't a single argument point about the BS, it's about lacking fireteam DUO, Courage/Religious/, and other small changes that clearly went into the game design philosophy after they established a baseline. The absolute craziest thing I want is a Szalamandra that doesn't cost 2 SWC, a suggestion so crazy that every single other HRMC in the game costs 1.5 SWC. I want parity. And from what I see of Dacolytes post, he wants the nomad TAGs updated to reflect their style of warfare (which given they use love the reptile series, is likely more of a mass TAG warfare approach using early tank theory, i.e. 2 tanks is 4 times better than 1 tank, and thus they should be dependent on reliable and good TAGs but not bleeding edge TAGs)

Half of Dacolyte's post was about military tactics of the nomads and how those tactics reflect real world tactics used by smaller nations to get concessions against larger powers. Not certain BS came into the discussion or wanting super TAGs.

 

Um... no one is making you read a post about TAGs, so why do you care?

But If you go back to my posts I am not asking for nomad TAGs to be anything but workhorses, just ones that got the changes in TAG play that other factions got. I.e. courage/religious on our tags so they don't make guts rolls against combi rifles (because Gecko's, trained for boarding actions are really scared of... small arms fire?). Maybe we shouldn't have the only 2 SWC HRMC on a base profile in the game. etc. I personally love my TAGs but they are currently designed like N3 TAGs. I'd like to run a main battle TAG in a duo, something even Ariadna can do with the Anaconda in their french forces. It isn't about super TAGs, it's about bringing our TAGs in baseline with design decisions clearly made for N4.

Except for the Iguana, agreed that one needs a remix. Personally I'd throw an AP Spitfire option on it, make the operator a specialist (since they can be specialists now, look at the anaconda n3 vs. n4) and maybe call it a day there. Make it a real mid field annoyance... and maybe give us back the ejector seat, that was hilarious and awesome.

p.s. The gecko pilot also has +1 burst assault pistols, it's burst 4 at short range which is pretty neat. Would be hilarious if they had fireteam duo.

P.S. I am in favor of hilarious/fun options.