Making "suboptimal" profiles work

Unfortunately, you're using him as a long-range ARO piece. So:

Better Armor: Still ultimately less survivable due to no shock immunity, no remote presence, and needing a Doctor instead of Engineer

Hiding: literally doesn't matter; you want long sightlines, so you're not hiding him

Better at dodging: +1 PH doesn't matter. Also; it's always worse than shooting back and fishing for a Crit.

Way better BS: Better, but worse than the TR bot with Marksmanship

4 Weapons: We're comparing HMGs, but he's always a long-range ARO piece, so only the sniper and HMG are relevant. And the HMG has +2B. The shorter ranged options are useless because they need another unit to help them push up, in which case you could just throw that unit into Suppressive Fire; why spend an extra 30 points and 2-3 orders to run a Sin Eater up instead?

Good range up to 48": This is just saying "he has a sniper option," which is redundant with the previous point.

Doesn't need other elements: There's one extra element: The EVO hacker. You're bringing Engineers anyways, and you really SHOULD bring the EVO to buff your Vostok (which you SHOULD be bringing). Also, as mentioned above: TR bot + Evo is only 8 more points than a Sin Eater HMG, and you get an extra order and a lot of extra use out of them.

Can't be hacked: Fair, but he's in your DZ. Things in your DZ are not usually very hackable, and if he's watching a long firelane your opponent can't easily get pitchers near you either.

This is fair.

And again; let me reiterate: he IS a better ARO piece. But he's 32 points of dead weight in active turn, and that's why he's screaming useless. And because he doesn't have MSV, your opponent never even has to engage him; they can just put smoke in front of him and ignore him. And then you've got a 32 point, 1.5 SWC paperweight.

The only factions that lack smoke have shooting pieces that dumpster him in a 1-on-1 fight (PanO, OSS, IA...). OCF might have some trouble, but that's the only one that comes to mind immediately. Any Mim(-6) Camo Infiltrator can also just walk up within 16" and then Surprise shot you from cover for a clean -12 to your BS, forcing you to try and dodge on an 8 or pray for a crit on B4. Or just walk behind you and shoot you in the back, since unlike a TR bot you lack 360 visor.

So again: He IS a better ARO piece. But he's still garbage.

 

Would a MSV1 on the Sineater make him useable? In Invincible Army, the upgrades to MSV1 have given me second thoughts on the LuDuan as a viable ARO vs smoke warbands, and it was very good for the Wildcats.

 

I'm not sure it'd make him usable, but it would certainly help.

The problem with any Neurocinetics model is that if the opponent finds a way to ignore it, then it becomes 100% dead points. You could make a model that says "anything this model shoots at in ARO instantly dies" and people would still find ways to block off its LoF, sidestep it, or outflank it.

With a TR Bot (or most ARO pieces), you don't have that issue. Even if the opponent smokes it off or avoids it, come your active turn it's still a BS 11 Marksmanship HMG that's easy to pick back up if it goes down (which is also a Classified Objective). That's BS 14 Burst 4 against non-Mimetism targets, and that's good enough to punch holes in "soft" ARO pieces like non-Core fireteams; that same Brawler sniper in a Core Link from earlier is 41% to get KO'd by the botbut only 31% to KO the bot in return, with a mere 5% to actually kill it so you can't just pick it up with an Engineer; if you've manage to reduce the link to 4 or less members, those odds become almost 55% for the bot to KO the Brawler, and just 18% for the Brawler to KO the bot. Even without the Marksmanship buff, as long as you've reduced the Brawler link to less than 5 members the TR bot is favored to win.

The Sin Eater, meanwhile, has only a 17% chance to win with his Burst 1. The Brawler knocks him out over 40% of the time, and kills him almost 21% of the time. Not great. With 5-man bonus intact, make that 12.55% for the Sin Eater vs. 57.27% for the Brawler, with a 29.20% to get killed. Just... awful.

The TR Bot is also FAST; 6-4 movement and Climbing Plus means it can get where you need it quickly, and it can often find an angle to shoot something that your opponent wasn't expecting, which means you catch models in bad range bands or simply outside LoF. It also lets it quickly reposition from one rooftop to the next, which is extremely handy in things like Panic Room or Biotechvore.

And that's why you don't see Neurocinetics units; the Sin Eater, the Chaksa HMG, and the Yan Huo are all at least decent to good in ARO. But if your opponent just... ignores them, then they become HUGE paperweights.

The sole exception is the Helot, because if your opponent ignores it, you only spent 9 points and 0.5 SWC on the LRL version, and they have to discover it first. That's at least 2 orders spent taking it out, and that's more than most 9 point ARO pieces can say.

Big difference between wasting 32 points and wasting 9.

 

Agreed 110%, was just thinking that at least with a MSV1 it would ignore the most common way of blocking LoF, regular Smoke. It is still too expensive.

YanHuo, I was briefly excited when we thought it could turn off the Tinbot to recover Burst in active, but then, meh.

 

MSV 1 would be a good start to make me take the Sin eater MK12 in consideration. For me the SWC option has no sense, the MK12 is a good alternative to have a good ARO model without using 1 SWC. That said being Neurocinetic instead of TR it need something more. I think that 29 points for the MK12 with MSV1 and 360 Visor would me take the Sin eater into consideration. Especially when I already use 1.5 SWC for the GML.

 

Good points matey, but the problem I'm having with yours and...Can't find his name's attitudes is that you had this opinion (And that's all it is) That certain units are 'Trash' and some are 'Must haves' For instance, you SHOULD be taking the vostok...Why? It's good but much like all things in this great game, it has huge weaknesses. Which is probably why we love it so much. But all the profiles are pointed off the Alguiciles, so there's room for everything if you find a way.

Addressing your points, it's all situational. If he is in cover he has armour 6, droid has 4 that's quite the leap. If your plan is to pick up all your dudes once they bite it, where are the rest of your orders going? Nomads seem to have cheap doctors, engineers and good hackers so you're not tied in to only doing the engineer route, but I do get your point. There are however other options to go the Doc route really quite easily, relying on what I'd consider a very nice amount of units that need Doc's over engineers. If you want to go the revive route at all...

Remotes can't cautious move, can't be an Lt. And yes the size of the guy does count, the aim is to target the enemies weak points and hide from his strong one's right? So being smaller is easier to achieve that, and being able to dodge is always better than not at all. Especially if you're on some mental odds, to say shooting for crits is better surely can't be a mathematically accurate statement?

He's not always a long range ARO piece, he can be a right pain in the arse up close with the Spitty or MK12, which is where I'd be placing the guy.

You'll have the explain the point you have about shorter range units being no good, I don't understand what you're saying there?

And of course let's not forget Mimetism at any point during this chat...

I find Remotes cumbersome.

 

please dont make sineaters your LTs after LoL

total reaction pieces are fought by stacking mods against them, usually smoke shooting or mimetism+range. with mods stacked against you crits on 4 dice is usually the only hope to contest ftf

 

Well, you did start with Sin-Eaters at the top of your list and, quote, "The ones from this list I'm most interested in are Sin-eater Mk12 and the Grenzer NCO." So it was kinda natural tbh.

To talk about some of the others:
- HMG Brigada is a SOLID piece with its new speed and ARM5. No mods, but sometimes you do not need them. Depending on fireteam composition they can be better to maneuver than a Vostok; they are overshadowed by an EVAder, but in armies that do not have those (like StarCo) the MB is a solid profile.
- How is the Hellcat HD suboptimal? It is a GREAT piece to lock down an enemy HI or TAG entering from the side in total cover; something the Tomcats cannot do (although if you just want an AD specialist it would be better to go other route or the Paramedic).
- The Moderator Hacker is actually a good, solid WIP13 BTS3 moderator that can shine in Bakunin with a tinbot. We are spoiled because he have Jazz, but in Bakunin he IS poor-man´s Jazz. He is not interventor, but can hold his own.

 

Taskmasters, primarily the HRL, decent solo (though not as ubiquitous as he was in N3), but amazing as the 32" gun backing up either a vostok or RG spitfire in a haris, in addition to the CQB support and offesvie/defensive use of koalas.
Sombra hacker, I mention this because theres a significant amount of crazy people that think it's bad and more so when compared to bandit for what ever reason, when this thing almost single handedly tables people.
Prowler, like the above but a hell of a lot more fragile and requiring a lot more finesse to use.
Custodiers, decent pitcher platforms and offer way too much utility to pass on (though a lot of people seem to).
Jelena, while a fragile and slow addition to a more speedy and durable fireteam she often offers great utility based on your meta.
Combi, Pulzar and EM grenade chaksa has some interesting applications as a utility piece and haris starter in BJC (And starmada)
Lunokhods, second best body guard unit in the game, and possible the best area denial piece.

 

Ohhh holy ****, I never saw Brigadas went to 6-2, Been playing that wrong for quite some time!

Yea Zmaj chillout matey it's a conversation. Just be happy people are engaging no?

Yea I know it's just another option was all Playing Onyx makes you look for the little things like this...

Like you say, the best way to stack those odds on the TR guys is to get that high burst mim guy in long range suddenyl the bot has 4 shots on 2's, in the same situation with the Sin, he has a 55% dodge maybe cover & mim, dropping the guys chance of hitting and increasing his abaility to get to cover right?

 

Easiest way to summarize Sin-Eaters: "too expensive to not have an active turn"

Nothing new under the sun, it's the same deal with all Neurocinetics. Neurocinetics shouldn't cost points, it should be discounting them...

 

I might be suspect because I have a MB as my profile pick, but 6-2 with a BSG means 14 inches of BS19 threat, and when you need to close in, it shines. I call it the "corner taker". Somebody in the midfield feels protected, you can Cautious Move 6in, then Move-Shoot "turning the corner" with a 2W ARM8 in cover B2 BS19. Or just template stuff. I can even tank a mine that way, and people don´t tend to expect that.

 

I'm pretty loosey goosey when it comes to making "suboptimal" profiles work, but trying to make the Sin Eater work is a lost cause. Neurocinetics is unsalvageable on expensive units, full stop. Also the only reason I keep mentioning the Vostok is that Bakunin doesn't really have any other GOOD core-linkable attack pieces; both the Moira and the Taskmaster require specific, very expensive links, which makes trying to use them very, very difficult (Haris teams can work), and the Moderator is, well, BS 10. Cassandra is INCREDIBLE, but again; expensive core-links only, so usually better solo or in a Haris.

Now, the Riot Grrl Spitfire is an option; BS 13 and MSV1 is always decent. But, if you have the extra 11 points, the Vostok is just so much better: takes 4 wounds to kill, Mim(-6), Marksmanship, +2 Damage. Now, you do lose out on MSV1 and 1 Burst, BUT the MSV1 isn't actually a nerf; the Vostok has a repeater. And that means that if you're up against an MSV ARO piece, and you brought a Hacking Device Plus, you can throw down a White Noise template through the Vostok, then murder it. Doesn't work against Core-link MSV pieces, but you can still throw down White noise and ignore them, so it's still got some merit.

Anyways, back to the TR bot vs. Sin Eater:

The droid is ARM 0, not ARM 1, so it's only "ARM 3" in cover, not 4. Nomads have cheap doctors, but we're talking about Bakunin here, and Bakunin can link a Clockmaker. Also, most of the time, there won't BE a body to pick up from a Sin Eater; Viral Snipers will kill it outright (and here the Sin Eater is BTS 0 instead of the bot's BTS 3) and even DA ammo has a good shot of straight-up killing him.

Remotes are actually EASIER to hide, in my opinion, because S4 is shorter than S2. and therefore you can use shorter obstacles to block LoF. If you're on a rooftop (which you should be), then you're going to have LoF to most of the table anyways, and when you go unconscious you go prone, which means you'll go into total cover anyways. Either way, it's negligible.

If you make your ARO piece your LT you deserve to lose that game. You aren't making your ARO piece your LT. Why did you even bring that up. Also no need to cautious move when you can just throw a B4 BS "14" shot at them. Also why is your ARO piece cautious moving? Is it moving to a place where it has a better sightline? Why didn't you just... deploy it there instead? It's not like the Sin Eater can shoot anything once it gets there. This is weird.

Sin Eaters are +1 PH to Dodge over the TR Bot. I don't know why you keep bringing that up as some massive improvement. The Sin Eater is a 55% to dodge, the Remote is 50%. I don't think this is going to matter very often anyways, since unless you're getting hit with -9 or -12 you're better off throwing the B4 and praying.

Spitty and MK12 have to run up the board to be useful; that's a waste of orders most of the time, especially since something else in your list has to clear the way for them in order for them to get there... at which point you could instead spend a single order (instead of the 2-3 to move the Sin Eater) to throw the model you just used to clear the way into Suppressive Fire. Will it be as good? No. Is the Sin Eater worth an extra 30 points and 2 orders? HELL no. You could get an extra Riot Grrl for that. Also the closer he is to the opponent, the closer he is to some 6-point warband with a shotgun trading for him. And you don't have a second wound to throw away.

The reason I don't mention Mimetism is because I was talking about Brawler Snipers, which have MSV2. Against anything that lacks MSV the Sin Eater will improve, but most (not all) lists include some form of MSV piece, even if it's just Knauf (who dumpsters the Sin Eater: He has BS Attack (Shock), and even if the Sin Eater is in good range Knauf is 46% to kill the Sin Eater vs. 26% to be knocked unconscious. If he can back up outside 36" first, it shifts to 65% vs. 14%).

And, again, none of this matters, because the core issue remains: Neurocinetics.

The best way I can think of how to describe Neurocinetics is to think of it this way: Neurocinetics flips how effective a unit is in Active turn and ARO. This sounds like an even trade, but there's 2 things wrong with it.

1: During Active turn, YOU pick the engagements. During ARO, your OPPONENT picks the engagements. This means that your opponent can always pick the most favorable matchup against your ARO piece, which means that Neurocinetics is in many ways a downgrade; it will always be fighting on your opponent's terms. If it even gets to fight at all.

2: This is the big one; Neurocinetics is way, way too pricey. An average TR bot is 24 points. The Chaksa Auxiliar HMG with Neurocinetics is... 24 points. Yup, you read that correctly; Neurocinetics is, for some reason, priced the same as Total Reaction on a TR bot (the Chaksa has MANY other issues but this isn't the place). You are paying almost full price, but receiving half the product.

So... the problem isn't making a suboptimal profile work; the problem is that the rule Neurocinetics itself is massively, massively flawed, and units that have it should be avoided at all costs; against competent opponents, the model will either die just as quickly, or be completely useless. Anyone who knows how to deal with a TR bot will be able to kill or bypass the Sin Eater the exact same way. But instead of being knocked into unconscious 2, the Sin Eater is dead. Instead of being able to quickly push up and help clear out the opponent, you have a paperweight.

But don't just listen to me and the rest of the forums; take one. Try it out. And trust me; the first time your opponent throws smoke and just walks past it you will see EXACTLY why the rest of us despise it so.

You find remotes cumbersome. I find 30 point paperweights unplayable.

 

Yes, but I would it only consider better in this combination with Mimetism

Not anymore, you have climbing plus on the Reaktion Zond and the now can get prone

11 vs 10? We have N4!

Only if you don’t have Assisted Fire on the Remote. You won‘t have it active in all case, but it’s enough to doubt this argument.

Where only the MSR is a valid addition…

…and therefore this argument is redundant.
And I don’t know if I want to spend these points for a 2 shot aro.

Don’t know exactly what you are meaning, but mobility is through CP way better and the Remote is faster too. Pointwhise you have 8 points difference for a second regular order and more options through the Salyut.

True.

Not any more.

And you can’t argue over taste.

 

Maybe I'm biased by my avatar, but I find the MK12 and Spitfire Sin Eaters are best. It's harder to stack mods when the attacker has to come across the board. Compare that to the HMG that most folks can knock down in three orders or less. They're kind of niche, though, only for missions where you know someone must approach.

My Unpopular unit lately has been the Tsyklon Feuerbach, subbed in for the Vostok in missions where I don't intend to take the link forward. Strong shooter and has a pitcher... too expensive but I feel like it's Bakunin's best way to spread repeaters.

 

I used zeros for this as well as just having the custodier shoot out some out for defensive repeaters (and the occasional offensive one). Though I if you wanted really put one down the table real aggressively nothing beats the tsyklon.

 

Sin-eaters could use some discounts, Sixth Sense or Shock Immunity. I think they need at least one of them.
But still, at least according to what I've played at least 30 games of Nomads, Sin-eaters and TR bots are never mutually exclusive. They SYNERGIZE. MSR Sin-eater out of enemy HMG's 32 inch range, makes opponents re-think about heading out to shoot TR bots, etc.

I still think TR bots are much more utilizable, recyclable. But BS13, Mimetism(-3) ain't something to chuckle upon.
Maybe it's time to recognize the title of the post, rather than just saying 'Sin-eater trash, never use it'.

 

Thanks yes actually, I thought they were ARM 1, so he is much better in that department. Making him Lt is an option, so it's an advantage. We're not talking Bakunin, are we? The fact the TR base is quite a lot bigger means it's harder to hide. He can cautious move, which is again an advantage if needed, whether you think it's useless or not, he can so it's a plus. He has a better dodge is my point so again an advantage. Why are we comparing them to Brawler snipers? I'm just listing things the S.E. has that the TR doesn't? Mim-3 is one of them.

The main problem I have with your viewpoint is that it doesn't match my own in-game experience, but that's why we're here right? This isn't a black and white game which is why we actually love it. I know on forums we all like to act the big man 'That's trash don't take it' But it's poppycock. That big bad opponent that knows everything and will never do anything wrong doesn't exist, (Oh he does in my circles yaddah yaddah) and even if he does who cares, guy can roll a few one's

Your guy has me on the new models though, mmmnnggg so happy I've just completed my Corregidor 100%