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Nomad TAGs are Different?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by karush, Sep 9, 2021.

  1. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    So looking at TAGs across factions (yes I am a heretic) the Nomad TAGs simply put missed a lot newer design philosophies. Almost as if Nomad TAGs were finished first in play testing, new ideas were created afterwards when revising other factions, and then they never revisited the Nomad TAGs

    1) Salamandra in Nomads. The Salamandra costs 2 SWC, seems like a hold over from last edition when they were 2 SWC. In current edition seems off as all other base options for a Hyper Magnetic Rail Cannon equipped model costs 1.5 SWC, including the Dragoes which shoots better than the Salamandra and has greater durability( two levels of unconscious, and the Zeta which has greater durability (2 levels of unconscious and has high wip engineers in faction). I have heard it argued it costs more because of higher BTS and we have good engineers, but we still see 1.5 SWC Overdrons which have a Tinbot-3 which essentially makes them BTS 9 (aside from also dropping the hacker's wip). Seems like the adjusted the SWC of the HRMC after finishing the Salamander. Keep in mind in both N3 and N4 SWC values are amazingly consistent, yes there is the odd "HI LT with a 0 SWC spitfire" but if I asked how much an HI with a spitfire costs you could tell me the answer with over 95% certainty.

    2) The Iguana is the only TAG without a specialist pilot. Notably the Anaconda now has a pilot that is a specialist operative, which in N3 was the other exception. Another 4 active wound TAG, the Gorgos, has a specialist pilot. I get that it was never a specialist, but they decided it was good enough for the anaconda (the other previous exception) and the Gorgos (the other 4 active wound TAG), and HI specialists are a common sight now.

    3) The Iguana is one of two TAGs which does not have AP ammo, and notably of the TAGs that had only an HMG in N3 is the only one not given an AP HMG or AP Spitfire option(compare to O-Yoroi and Anaconda) (P.S. I prefer the AP Spitfire option given it's overall combat role of mid field TAG)

    4) The Lizard TAG is the only "bare bones" (usually armor 8, multi HMG, no marker state, no mimetism, not a lot of fancy rules to make it something other than a conceptual tank) TAG without Fireteam Duo in a sectrorial (compare to Squalos in NCA, Guijia in IA/White Company, Maghariba in Ramah, Raicho in MAF, and Anaconda in Druze/Starco/Spiral Corps/MRRF). I would suggest adding "Fireteam: Duo" to the lizards in Bakunin, and changing AVA to two (though the real tactical purpose is adding a wild card or "counts as" model to a duo with the TAG).

    Now time for my tin foil hat. We know Nomads are the baseline. The nomads have the first model of infinity (the Alguacil) and they were finished first in the N4 beta testing. I think it is honestly a case where they said "Nomads are finished time to work on the other factions", came up with new ideas and design philosophies while working on other factions, and then because of deadlines/crunch/a-wild-moose-invading-the-office the Nomad TAGs (and possibly other parts of the faction) were not revisited.

    So why this post? Because I love CB, and it hurts the image when there are visible flaws in the beta-testing. It does not look good for the company that an outsider looking in can piece together how beta testing was done, and how it negatively impacts a faction. Furthermore I love the nomads and strong TAG play is one reason I picked up this faction and this game. It is a risky business plan to make one of three TAG focused factions and give demonstrably worse TAGs (3rd in number of TAGs in a game were most factions only had 1 till white banner showed up at end of N3. even now we have 4 where most have 2 if not 1).

    Yes we can make TAGs still function, we have clock makers and the best hackers for your points around. My issues are 1. it is an identifiable flaw in the beta testing (which raises questions about other aspects of the beta testing and nomads) and 2. the Nomads shouldn't have to use what are essentially N3 TAGs when N4 TAGs are better equipped and have more tactical options across ALL other factions.

    P.S. Why the emphasis on TAGs? Other than my blatant bias towards stompy robots, they make for a good barometer. They fall largely into two categories (S6 TAG and S7/8 TAG), are incredibly uniform in terms of rules/stats/weaponry, and they often all serve the same tactical niche: the conceptual tank. This uniformity makes deviations from the norm easy to spot and diagnose from game design and statistical perspective.
     
  2. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    OK, so couple of things: nomad TAGs are obsolete, war weary mil surplus sold by pano and refitted. These nomad TAGs are at least 2 generations behind current frontline and bleeding edge machines used by the major powers in the fluff. They shouldn't be as good as the main power's machines.
    Iguana doesn't have a pilot, it has an operator like the anaconda.
    What the iguana does have instead of ap ammo is defense from hacking that other TAGs would kill for as it brings its own repeater. White noise + shoot is a very valid tactic with the iguana and interventors can frag enemy hackers closing to engage the iggy or spotlight non hackable through its zone of control.

    The szalamandra does what it does at a price that is acceptable for its capabilities. Not all factions need to mirror match the others, just because you have a capability (TAGs) doesn't mean they all have to be cutter-level tech
     
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  3. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    eh, somewhere in the middle. Iggy is pretty meh, Salzy could be 1.5 SWC, iggy and Lizzy could both fairly have better pilots /operators for cost (Iggys could be a specialist OP, Lizzy pilot could be an engineer).

    On the other hand TAGs + Nomad Warbands and Hacking are pretty good. B3 gizmokit Clockmaker in BJC is pretty cool. Salzy is fine for Cost, Geckos are flat out good.

    And the dilapidated tech argument is fine as far as it goes. They still need to be interesting and well balanced game options. Which they are to an extent, but they could use a little more tweaking too.
     
  4. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    Why are you trying to find any logic behind points pricing? Fluff-wise, Nomads don't have the production capabilities to mass-produce TAGs (untill TAGRaid comes out and suddenly they could do it all along), all their TAGs were bought in bulk from Pano and upgraded with less obsolete parts. That's it, hence the price in SWC iirc.

    They need to either re-do the Operators so they can do missions/survive better (zero-v smoke on ejection?) or just scrap that 'Ejection system' rule altogether and make it a normal TAG.

    Duo? Why not haris with clockmaker and hacker while we're at it? Don't bother, Bakunin is dead and abandoned by CB since they cannot shove it into Code One boxes.

    Personally, I'd love to see some some of the 'pimped-up' TAG variations they keep mentioned in fluff. And perhaps even Anaconda mercenaries.
     
  5. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    Always remeber that not all Faction are the same. Sometimes you just pay more points to have the same toys as other faction. Look at our Hacker for example. Probably CB wanted Nomads to pay an extra for a B5 tag.

    On the note of Bakunin, CB use the same reelase method of GW (more or less), but instead of army you have Sectorial. So you have Sectorial with old rules and Sectorial with update rules. My only real complaint is that CB could have done more with the profile revision of N4.
     
  6. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    TAGs are not Nomads strong feature, that is true - but almost all the other things are, so I guess we're just not meant to play a game of TAG. Why would you need a Shally HI HMG wielding pilot to be a specialist? You play Nomads, your Specialists are already there - wherever you needed them the most. Why would you need a Duo to follow up on Shally, when you have a Tomcat coming right from the flank - was waiting there safe just for the occasion. I guess Nomad TAGs being as they are is just a balancing factor. (Not that I believe in CB ability to beta test or something, just as it stands Nomads are in a really good spot).
     
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  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's the thing: Nomads TAGs are actually.... good-ish (leaving aside Iggy).

    Salzy is a solid TAG that does excellent work. Its operator is seriously cool, and adds to the aesthetics. She's worth taking in lists, and the 2SWC isn't that much of an issue when things like AP MMR Puppets, MK12 Vostoks and Geckos exist to cheat the SWC issues.

    Geckos are just awesome: extremely interesting and unique as TAGs. Sure, they're basically HI that can poop out a Dual Assault Pistol Button Pusher... but, that's a cool point of difference.

    Lizzie is pretty average, and yeah I wouldn't say no to a WIP13 Engineer (to add a little spice to the Pilot) but, as you say, it's about context. Lizzie is still a solid choice in Bakunin. And, if Bakunin gets the love it deserves... then it should continue being a solid choice because of the list you can build around it.

    There's a reason that when I set out to build a Dragao + Tik TAG list I ended up with a Salzy + Gecko list instead: Nomads TAGs are good enough to allow the rest of the faction to shine around them. They're basically where I want them to be, if I was going to change anything it'd be at the systematic level (basically make the Pilot the Trooper and the TAG just 'gear').

    Which leaves us with Iggy: she's a beautiful piece of trash. CB needs to give her a distinct role and then make her work in that role. Personally, I'd build her to be a TAG that you want to shove down your opponents throat (or at least up the table) - where the fact that she sucks to repair but has 4 organic wounds and a Repeater adds something.
     
  8. borisgreymenace

    borisgreymenace killer heckler

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    overall, i think the Nomad TAG game is pretty good. maybe not great, but we have a great variety and Szallys and Geckos are really solid for what you're buying. as others have mentioned, their design space is not to stand toe to toe with a Dragao or Marut or Avatar. so viewed from the prism of TAG v. TAG Nomads might seem disadvantaged. but the other tools that Nomads also have access to overall more than makes up for it. reliable hacking is pretty trivial. Vostocks are laughably good. the context of the rest of the faction and synergy between TAGs and other units make them quite viable.

    of course, the Iguana stands alone. i think what they're trying to achieve is actually pretty interesting. an S7 HI on four wounds that is reduced to an S2 HI after 2 damage. the operator is not a specialist but keeping that tac awareness order and HMG after losing the TAG is pretty valuable in a TAG centered list, imo. for me the main problem is that easy access to high burst weapons and AP ammo really diminish the operator's survivability before and after you lose the TAG. limiting the overflow of wounds to 1 might be a fix with a change to the ejection rule. or making the TAG and/or operator AP immune might also be a fix. or a MHMG for TAG and operator, though i can already hear the griping about how it's an unwarranted buff to Nomads. not sure i think an S2 MHMG is all that powerful, but it would be interesting enough to make me want to try the Iguana more.

    don't really play the Lizzy, but it looks ok. spec fire grenade launcher seems like a trap to waste orders but i can still see it wrecking link teams and camo markers when it goes off, and +1 damage does not hurt. also the only MHMG in the faction which already makes it somewhat interesting as a TAG choice. BJC could use some love and new sculpts overall, wouldn't be surprised if it gets an action pack in a year or two like MO, which will have some updates to make the faction feel more modern. but it's got it's own design space as the MI warrior nun faction with some really great other units (morlocks, prowlers, zeroes, riot grrls), so i wouldn't expect it to end up very different than it is today.
     
  9. theomc

    theomc Well-Known Member

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    I'm hoping for an update to the Iguana here soon. Either improve guns (AP HMG) and up the points a little, or drop the points or something. As is, it's just not playable (IMHO). As another discussion I was having pointed it's actually WORSE than a 2 wound TAG:
    - a "normal" TAG with 2 wounds would go unconscious after taking 2 wounds and have a chance to be fixed (so it takes 3 to put it down, like any 2 wound model)
    - Iguana goes "poof" after taking a 2nd wound (so it basically has 1 wound+NWI). Yes you get an HI HMG, but... yay? It's basically the consolation prize for your TAG dying (who wants that over a fixable TAG or one with a normal number of wounds..???)
     
  10. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    Iguana need to change the HMG to an AP Spitfire and the Operator to have a repeater. This way we can have a Tag that isn't anti sinergic with himself and retain his main utility.
     
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  11. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Vulnerability (Total)

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    Iggy's weakest point is its operator - that guy just does nothing of interest, doesn't even score its points in area control missions. BS12 A3 W2, no special rules, could it be more bland? Give it something - anything - of note. X-visor, 360 visor, specialist, veteran, repeater, super jump; just something to make you want to spend its tactical awareness order.

    The Iggy is a fancy tag that does interesting things, but that rarely lasts; currently the operator is so bland by comparison.
     
  12. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Oh one more oddity. If you go through the TAGs only 5 do not have Courage or Religious. All of the nomad TAGs and the Gorgos. TAGs such as the Guijia, Maghariba, and Anaconda that did not have it in N3 gained it in this edition. So yeah, the walking armor 11 in cover Tank will stand fast against enemy fire unless it is a nomad TAG, then it will seek cover from combi rifles 35% percent of the time. I believe this difference is because Corvus Belli did not revisit the Nomad TAGs at the end of beta testing after using the faction as a baseline for the development of the other factions, as it matches with the other 4 changes in design philosophy that are visibly present in the other factions. At this point I am worried they did not revisit the faction in general if the cracks are this easy to see.

    As for why the Gorgos lacks it, likely just didn't care enough to revisit a TAG they had already discontinued the faction for.
     
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  13. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    To address Several of the counter arguments.

    "Nomads TAGs are obsolete" yes, in the fluff they are army surplus from the major powers and were obsolete when purchased. Notably I believe the Reptile series was a Pan-O line of TAGs. You know what other TAG began as a Pan-O TAG and was then handed to the nomads for reconstruction? The Zeta, the HRMC equipped TAG of O-12. Nomads know how to Build TAGs and more importantly rebuild them to where "The units deployed on the battlefield have little to do with what was originally purchased...these surplus T.A.G.s are dismantled and optimized with new software installations and experimental wetware. In this way, Lizards are on the same level as their enemy equivalents, and just as lethal and resistant.". This argument does work for the 2 SWC cost on the salamandra in theory, as The Nomads do not build the frame of the machine and so it is harder to get the parts... except they are AVA 2 which would likely be the better indicator. It still feels like the Salamandra was designed at a point in the beta testing when HRMCs were 2 SWC base rather than 1.5.

    As for basically any other fluff based rebuttal I will deffer to the Anaconda. The Anaconda is in fluff a nomad TAG, it is a mercenary unit (not so) secretly ran by the Black Hand. It features a TAG that 1) has a TAG Operator but the Operator is a Specialist Operator and thus pushes buttons, 2) a TAG that did not have an AP-maingun in N3 but now has an AP Spitfire option, and 3) is essentially a barebones MBT with fire team duo (and some spicy options depending on faction). If you want to come at this from a fluff perspective the Black hand is training their merc unit to function better as a team (fireteam: Duo) and not duck when shot at because it's a tank(Courage) compared to all of of the nomad TAGs, and to take it a step further would rather see specialists and AP Ammo in that Merc unit as opposed to the spiritual successor to that unit, the Iguana. Yeah... I don't see it. It seems more likely that the Anaconda, as a mercenary TAG, was worked on later in beta testing and so got many of the upgrades that are now nearly ubiquitous across the game for TAGs. The Anaconda is an N4 TAG and the design philosophies used in it shows.

    On "Nomad TAG play is supposed to be weak". From game design and a business view-point this is not likely. If a faction is meant to be weak in an area you don't spend the time and money designing, printing, and advertising models for that style of gameplay. Nomads have the third highest number of TAGs falling behind #2 (CA) by one tag and with double the number of TAGs of #4 (Yujing, depending on which part of N3 it is quadrubple). Furthermore we have excellent engineers and hackers, arguably the best on a per point basis. Nomads are not designed to have weak TAG play, if we were then We'd have at most 2 TAGs just like Yu-Jing and Haq, or even just one. Heck, unlike Haq we even have sculpts for all 4.

    While the Nomad TAGs are good they are essentially N3 TAGs. I don't want the Nomads to have the ultimate TAGs, I just want them to have not missed out on the design choices that now, and likely moving forward will, characterize TAGs in this game.
     
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  14. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I agree that CB does make mistakes regarding the consistency of unit designs. But at the same time, I don't think it's so evident that they've done the same to our TAGs. Have you tried Geckos? They've become stronger, which highly implies that CB is not just neglecting our TAG designs.
    TAGs not having Courage, SWC 2 on Szally, lack of AP ammo on Iggy, seem intentional.

    You can't just ad-hoc everything people have said, mate. According to what I've read, almost every points you're making are based on the belief "Our TAGs have missed out the design choices", which has not been fully gained consensus yet.

    You've got some reasons that our TAGs could be better, but there are quite a lot of reasons that our TAGs SHOULD not be top-tiered as other factions' do.

    Mate, how can you be so sure with these?

    Mate, I think it's time for you to consider changing the faction.
     
    #14 Ugin, Sep 11, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  15. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    The n4 core book specifically calls out reengineered tags as being equivalent to YJ tags, not pano and aleph levels. Page 118.

    Both YJ tags are bs14, piloted tags.
    So our main battle tags are exactly on-point as per fluff
     
    #15 csjarrat, Sep 11, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  16. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Alright, I can accept that. So our TAGs should universally have courage (affects all nomad TAGs), universally have AP Ammo options (for the Iguana), universally have specialist pilots and operators (affects the Iguana), have a fireteam duo option for the MBT (I will gladly accept this just for the Lizard), and if we extrapolate from the Yan Huo the HRMC should be 1.5 SWC just like a multi HMG and increasing the strength of the BS attack should also not increase the SWC cost just like how the Yan Huo and the Guijia are both 1.5 SWC with a multi HMG (Salamandra drops to 1.5 SWC). In fact the Salamandra should not be 2 SWC unless it is a luetenant, I could accept adding that profile but it was not something I was initially looking for.

    I am glad we come to a fluff based compromise on the Nomad TAGs using the Yu-Jing TAGs as a template.
     
  17. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Since when is a yan huo a TAG?
    The technology is on par, doesn't mean that the list building options are the same. Why should nomads get a duo?
    Nomads retrofit obsolete mil surplus. They're not making any more of them, they're literally a finite resource. YJ can make as many guija and blue wolf as they want. That's what the swc cost represents. YJ can afford to deploy more, more readily and have them be more integrated into their forces. Nomads haven't got the numbers, limited spares etc and a reticence to deploy them willy-nilly because they can't be replaced as easily
     
  18. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    You are right the Yan Huo is not a TAG, but it was a useful example for showing how to guns are priced in infinity. As I had been asked to use Yu Jing I worked with the only HRMC equipped unit available, the Yan Huo. Basically we can see from the Yan Huo that Multi-HMGs and HRMC are both priced at 1.5 SWC. We can also see that moving a gun from an HI to a TAG does not increase the SWC of the gun, Compare the Yan Huo and the Guijia (alternatively we could compare AP Spitfires and AP HMGs if we opened it up to other factions but I digress). So if there were an HRMC equipped TAG in Yu Jing it would be reasonable to conclude that it would cost 1.5 SWC base, which would be in alignment with the ZETA, Dragoes, and Overdron.

    As for the lack of man power and industrial base, assuming that is the case the Nomads are also operating on much smaller fronts. They don't have a continent length border with a rival hyper power like Yu Jing does on Svarlheima. Instead they operate on orbitals, mining outposts, and ship boarding actions all of which require significantly less man power. Thus while they don't have the same industrial base or man power as Yu Jing, they are able to engage with equal strength when they choose to on these smaller fronts, concentrating their forces rather than tying them down with kilometers of defensive lines. Ofcrourse this all ignores the argument that the Nomads do have an industrial base worthy of a major power as they have more than just their three ships. They operate mining operations and orbitals throughout the human sphere, with 30 known allied orbitals in the outer edge alone, from the nomad RPG book. Additionally they have the most skilled miners in the human sphere with legal access to several rich mining operations that other powers do not have access to (Crimson Stone details one such area).

    But let us look beyond the fluff. The reason I wish for the lizard to have fireteam duo is simply that it now helps define what a barebones main battle TAG (MBT) is in 4th edition. If we compare the Lizard to it's 4 closest contemporaries (Guijia, Squallo, Magariba, and Raicho) we can see that each of them have been granted Fireteam Duo in at least one sectorial. If we allow comparison to the Anaconda then even Ariadna has the ability to pair a S7 TAG with a wild card providing interesting tactical options. This lack of a Duo option makes the Lizard seem an anomaly, and given the other trends I see in TAG design and gameplay that the nomads lack I do not feel this is a quirk of the faction. This is what I mean when I say the Nomad TAGs are different, they are not different compared to one faction but different compared to practically every other faction.
     
  19. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    YJ TAGs could have better BS because the Pilot is better trained with in house designed gear.

    Our TAGs might stand some tweaks but they are definitely playable, and they don't need to be the same as or even equivalent to, anyone else's. In fact they should not be.
     
  20. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    I am not certain what you are talking about. The BS of nomad TAGs was not one of my points. Except for the gecko, which has always had lower BS than standard (14) for a TAG, all our TAGs are BS 14 just like the Blue Wolf and Guijia. So I am not even aware of the "better BS" you are referring to.

    While I agree that our TAGs should not be identical, I do want them to be TAGs as defined by the traits and changes CB made for N4. "Why should nomads get a duo [on a S7 MBT]?" Well, because CB decided that was so important that every faction has that option now except for the discontinued Tohaa and the Nomads. Even Ariadna can do it.
     
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