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Fireteam changes incoming

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hachiman Taro, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Why would you take 3 aros at once?
     
  2. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Bad choices.
     
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  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Wauw.. I've been saying this literally since N4 launched and gotten nothing but weird looks in response.

    Nice that other people are finally catching up to this fact as well.

    Been playing that army on/off in N4 while almost literally never played it in N3. It's insanely obnoxious and abusive and I genuinely don't understand why people isn't talking about it.
     
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The choice was loose the game or win spectacularly. I lost but if my shots actually hit all three it would have been awesome!
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I mean in general it feels better losing to that faction then Nomads or Tohaa or anything with Andromeda, still. But I find that Sensor is more of a must-have then it was in N3 for precisely this matchup; you've got to efficiently resolve camo tokens, sometimes at a distance.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Ah ok, so it was an end-of-the-game squeeze kind of situation.
     
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Gotta disagree on the conclusion there.
    While I don't think Vanilla Ariadna are losers and end up with a lot of relatively high threat and performance options on the board, it's a downgrade compared to where they came from in N3.
    Losing 5+ Orders and 2+ Impetuous Orders on "average" for a min maxed list, the increased overall quality is a nice offset, but it's not like their top performing solo pieces have been buffed to make up for over a quarter of their Order economy and warm body ARO potential being lost. While some of their midrange troops (mostly SAS) got buffed significantly, others lost a bit of their threat potential (Chasseurs losing ARO delay from 6th Sense). While Antipode Assault Packs got better, they're still not the same as 5+ Warbands.
    Bearpodes are Bearpodes, but yet another high threat midrange troop that uses Orders well after it gets where it needs to be, which was easier with bigger Order pools.
    Then there's a lot of other armies getting significant price reductions for HI/TAGs and Hacking buffs, which Ariadna benefits relatively little from directly overall. But does benefit indirectly thanks to their high threat level options having better targets.

    Overall I'd say Ariadna transitioned well, but does have some weakpoints.
    Like significant problems to stop things wading through their reduced number of ablative bodies, since they simply can not reach the same saturation mix of throwaway Berserk, Mines, DTWs and Smoke against higher quality (due to HI/TAGs getting cheaper) enemy troops compared to N3.
     
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  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Teslarod
    What ablative bodies?

    Literally the entire army is invisible.
    Their line infantry have camo-states as well.

    Typically, only the Bearpode and his handler are the only non-marker state units on the table.

    Also, I disagree that their solo pieces haven’t been buffed.

    The Spetsnazs and the Para-commandos are no longer chained to their former stupid restrictions of choosing a side before the battle begins and can now choose freely.
    This is on top of the fact that the Spetsnazs got AP on his Rifle, as well as D-charges with the now buffed MA2 (huge buff).
    The Para-commando also got a new power profile, with her stable Mimitism, FO and essentially a Heavy-Shotgun to boot.

    The typical Ariadna list will leave you only camo-markers to waste your time with, while having multiple tools to straight up start in your DZ from the word go, without wasting a single order and can remove massive pieces with impunity, while also entirely circumvent hacking/guided meta.
    What makes this even stronger is the loss of sniffers and Sensor being a vanishingly rare skill.

    Sure, this isn’t unassailable but the Ariadna you’re describing is not the competitive that’s being put on the table, nor is it susceptible to anything you just described. In fact, you’re actively helping the Ariadna player by moving your things, leaving you more open to flanking and picking your things apart.

    The reason Ariadna is semi-obnoxious is that you basically have to turtle and play non-interactive while moving only a single specialist piece to contest objectives, so you’re forcing him move his own stuff, rather than you come to him on his terms.
     
  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    AD Spetz and Para Commando indeed got better, but I'll voice some massive doubts that either of those is on the high end of the spectrum or anywhere close as unique an addition to vanilla you make it out to be.
    Van Zant already existed in N3.

    Rokots are pretty obvious to identify (no MOD) and while Camo is nice to waste Orders you still pay 10 points while losing the DTW and +6 ARO of a cheaper 6 point LSG+CR Volunteer. Full Camo list is possible, but you're likely taking Antipodes and/or Bearpode, which means you're not doing it anyway.

    Didn't I specifically mention the midrange threats got buffed? No disagreement there. It just doesn't outweigh their best gunner not getting any better or their Order/Options on the field shrinking.

    Being resilient against the stupidity that is Guided into missile is less of a point for Ariadna and more of a point against Guided being a proper strat. Far from everyone runs that for a reason and it being pretty much useless in some matchups makes it all the more obvious why it's more gamble than strategy.

    Sure all camo lists are annoying, but they also bleed Orders just fine if they just sit there behind their Markers and try to discourage you with Mines and DTWs with the occasional Sniper (if even that). There's no hidden Deployment in Ariadna, your own AD can have a field day. Achilles, Anathematic, Multiwound Links and everything with an MSV that can take a hit can reasonably walk across the field and take out half a combat group worth of (Regular) Orders including one or several of the obvious target like Antipode Controller or Bearpode.
    Gotta be honest, if you don't even try to chew through the defensive layer you're asking to lose and that's on you. Walking into Ariadna on their terms means to accept that you'll eat some DAM13 templates, expect CC threats and a potential surprise ML or Sniper. It's pretty good, but far from impossible to deal with.
    And that's only kill missions. Ariadna is going to have a really bad day if they let you walk across the board and pick up boxes or push buttons unopposed.
    Which is why a good Ariadna player doesn't just rely on sitting it out in the other guy's turn and probably runs a couple things that aren't Camo Markers.
     
    #129 Teslarod, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
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  10. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Army can be invisible at start, but they have to reveal to do anything. And they have real issues with dealing with TAGs and HI ( you know, the things most buffed in N4, which Ariadna basically doesn't have ), especially at range. Some profiles are better than they were before, but you can't compare that to the buffs some other factions ( which were already strong ) got. Much more HI and TAGs on the table hurt Ariadna really bad. If your opponents for some reason still don't play much HI and TAGs then you probably won't notice, but locally people play lots of HI and TAGs ( I mean PanO and especially MO are really popular so what else would they play ) and I was getting crushed. TAGs and HI just walk around the field and have zero fears of Ariadna camo, nothing there that can threaten them seriously.
     
  11. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Also Unknown Ranger and Knauf and Uxia bring in the smoke shooting that just wasnt there

    N3 Ariadna did not have the threat of Duroc and Margot (Van Zant was countered by... a warcor)

    HI and Tags are not a threat because D-Charge is the best CC weapon in the game and no one can reliably tank a lot of templates

    I dont think that optimized Ariadna list is full camo+bear, volunteers/varangians+112+Knauf are also on the table usually, maybe Ranger also

    famous last words of many who rolled 3s on consecutive flamer saves or got hugged by a dodging SAS
     
    #131 fatherboxx, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
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  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Why are you in my DZ and wasting orders to discover Line Infantry, while simultaneously trying to pretend you're not wasting your time and not playing on my terms?

    Van Zant didn't have MA3, nor Mimetism, nor BS15, nor D-charges that no longer give negative MOD's in CC.
    The new Spetsnazs is huge

    In what game? How do waddle around from your DZ to the enemie's DZ, while discovering hidden and prone camo markers and kill them trivially? That literally doesn't happen against someone who can actually deploy.
    How are you squaring the circle of killing a well deployed Bearpode with little effort? So, you just trivially waltz from your DZ to his DZ and can easily take down a Bearpode with zero issues, despite his ARM8 in cover and total immunity? And at no hindrances? What are you even describing here, except for a shitty player who cannot deploy?

    TAGs and HI are the targets that are the most trivial for Ariadna to delete, been that way since N3.
    Ariadna have so much innate AP and/or multi-wound weapons that it's not even funny.
    The only strugles I've experienced with Ariadna are armies heavy with visual mods, especially if they are multi-wounded.
     
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  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    @Zewrath :
    Why are you in my DZ and wasting orders to discover Line Infantry, while simultaneously trying to pretend you're not wasting your time and not playing on my terms?

    Why did you pay 4 points a pop when I don't, for a trooper that's worse when I do?
    I like Rokots, but for the most part they're optional.


    Van Zant didn't have MA3, nor Mimetism, nor BS15, nor D-charges that no longer give negative MOD's in CC.
    The new Spetsnazs is huge

    Spetsnaz are MA2 (not that it matters since we're using D-Charges anyway), BS12 MMS (not BS15), don't have Dogged, Parachutist (DZ) or NCO. All in all they are a new very nice option (if you don't want 2 HMGs) not a new threat vector Ariadna had no access to before.

    In what game? How do waddle around from your DZ to the enemie's DZ, while discovering hidden and prone camo markers and kill them trivially? That literally doesn't happen against someone who can actually deploy.
    How are you squaring the circle of killing a well deployed Bearpode with little effort? So, you just trivially waltz from your DZ to his DZ and can easily take down a Bearpode with zero issues, despite his ARM8 in cover and total immunity? And at no hindrances? What are you even describing here, except for a shitty player who cannot deploy?

    The entire strat you describe is vulnerable to exactly that approach. Walking across the field Discover+Shooting anything you can get your grubby hands on with a goal in the DZ in mind. The thing about the precise approach of making everything a Camo Marker is that you get to walk past it unless it wants to reveal and make itself a target. That's literally the main downside when playing the way you claim Ariadna players should.
    Anything with a high Burst gun can outshoot a Bearpode pretty easy. Smoke Dodge on 19s and DTW is nice, but not as nice as a Spitfire (or Shotgun if you can risk a DTW hit) in capable hands with potential Link bonus and 4-5 times the dice. Funny enough the Bearpode is also quite vulnerable to CC Specialists in its reactive turn, having no MODs or NBW means a generic CC dude (generic MA2+) and a friend beat it up pretty reliably, Total Immunity or not.


    TAGs and HI are the targets that are the most trivial for Ariadna to delete, been that way since N3.
    Ariadna have so much innate AP and/or multi-wound weapons that it's not even funny.
    The only strugles I've experienced with Ariadna are armies heavy with visual mods, especially if they are multi-wounded.

    "This army is OPOP, no counter" posts are usually garbage for a reason. How are you supposed to quantified a blanket statement where something has no reasonable counter and small enough of a sample size that it apparently never lost a game?
    Ariadna has good answers to Armor and TAGs, far from the only, far from the best, just good. Shinobu does it better in CC, Karhu FB does it better at range and these are just extreme outliers, there are a lot of options the various armies in existence have to deal with those specific targets, claiming "it's trivial for Ariadna" serves as a good chuckle and not much else in a Game that has Eclipse Grenade Makauls in Triads with K1 Sukeuls :P
     
  14. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    bearpode that stands in front of linked high burst gun means only that his owner is a moron (or that the bear has already eaten 1/4 of enemy roster and doesnt care about dying)
    how can anything generic CC fight the bearpode? killing it would take several lucky ftfs against 21 (coinflip) while one return hit with a hammer is death. feeding it shaolin monks is a decent exchange but you'd rather chainrifle him on the way. getting multiple CCs is worth organizing against TAGs (trade orders to get rid of a costly unit that disengages with a penalty) but not against that monster
     
    #134 fatherboxx, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The Regular Bearpode has a pretty huge price discount compared to the Irregular Bearpode and the werewolves. It's a pretty important part of the calculation when trying to device counters to it. Not that the impetuous Bearpode is much easier to deal with outside of Tohaa/Spiral.

    I've had several games where Ariadnan has taken several of my heavy infantry in both ARO and active shooting simply because nearly everything is a threat. To put this simply: it's about the quantity of highly viable threats against costlier units protected mainly by ARM and W that Ariadna can field. I mainly play HI a lot because it affords me a second chance on unlucky rolls, but Ariadna often does not allow this.
    This is not to say that either Shinobu nor Karhu can be discounted, but Ariadna can a larger number of these anti-HI units than anyone else, both in camo and without camo.
    Good? Bad? Up to you. As a prolific HI player I'm honestly fine with this design. Just don't try and deny that this distinctive advantage that Ariadna has exists.
     
    #135 Mahtamori, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
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  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Wha..?

    Mate... Are you actually aware that MA2 is the one that gives +3/-3, like the old MA3 did? And that Van Zant didn't have that in the past? And why are you arguing semantics, can you please elaborate on the meaningful difference between BS15 and BS12 with MMS? Like... There's almost none.

    I often don't.
    Vanilla Ariadna have now so many killy options, that 2 HMG Spetsnazs are almost athing of the past.
    I'm sorry it really doesn't appear that you're playing the Ariadna much, especially on this part:

    This is straight up just bizare, no trolling.
    You're telling me that hidding in camo makes it so you can walk up and discover+shoot? Like... how do you and your friends deploy camo markers exactly? Because you make it sound like they are not prone in an elavated position, while being near the edge of a ladder so it's physically impossible for you to use the ladder and gain LoF.
    Sure, that doesn't mean you're LITERALLY NEVER going to discover + shoot, but the idea that a full camo army in Ariadna just allows you to discover+shoot anything along the way and pretend that you killing what sounds like 4-5 regular orders worth of units in a round is not a thing, sorry I'm not sure what else to tell you.
    This, as I said, is just bizare because you should NEVER be able to kill more than two dudes (max) by this approach, if deployed even half decent, because it wastes so much time and along with the description of how you're supposedly just killing a Bearpode so easily, doesn't do much else but convince me on my claim that your Ariadna player deploys like shit.

    That's a shitty strawman. Literally on the same page, I said that this army isn't unassailable by any means.
    I'm merely laying out why the army is so strong in this current meta and opposing the "it's a B-tier army"-take you're downplaying it to be.

    Ariadna is, unironically, one of the best (if not the best) CC armies.
    It's staggering how they have so many CC platforms that deletes TAGs and non-CC HI's on top of delivery systems that most armies can only dream of.
    It's equally staggering how anyone can pretend otherwise.

    That argument doesn't even follow.
    That Tohaa exists doesn't invalidate the fact that Ariadna can trivially remove large armoured threats and what you're describing is not even something special. You're merely describing what is essentially smoke + warband solution, which the Ariadna nails several times over, better and cheaper but I guess Sukuels have K1, so yeah... that's a thing I guess.
     
    #136 Zewrath, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
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  17. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I thought this was the fun speculation about fireteam changes thread not the acrimonious argument about Ariadna thread.
     
  18. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    What is this, Critposting? Fun is not allowed. Angry noises all the time!
     
  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The sentiment that 15+ Orders should be somehow unable to kill more than 2 low ARM meatbags because of ... I actually don't know, the economic calculations behind that claim elude me. Pretty sure the conversation stops with an agree to disagree right there.

    Back to topic then?
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No one spends that many orders to kill 2 low ARM meatbags under an inferior camo if they can avoid it, which is why hiding them works. If you're going for their shitty order generators you need to accomplish kills by volume and the camo will prevent that from being possible.

    Anyway, you kind of are on topic since spending 15 orders on hunting camo requires a mixed link for most factions.
    With nothing to go on, at this moment I'm kind of wondering whether they'll go for nerfs to mixed links or different bonuses or if the type of bonus was tied to which troop was trying to use it. Like what if the 5-man bonus for a mixed link was +3 WIP rather than +3 BS? Hell, what kind of fresh hell would it be if mixed links got bonuses exclusively to technical weapons and skills while "pure" links got them to shooting skills? Would Tohaa survive being that much worse at shooting or would the new and improved Stinkmancy be so horrible to face that they become (remain?) the new champions? Would the "vanillaified" Corregidor Pitchers be enough to offset how much more horrible the hacking becomes? What about all the factions that relied on the wildcard shooter, would they survive it if mixed links now mostly just aided in button pushing for them? Will you welcome the new OSS Dakini overlords?
     
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