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Some thougths regarding TAK

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by MATRAKA14, Sep 2, 2021.

  1. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    These are some random thoughts about TAK in N4:

    The tank hunter is an important profile, but right now it's too expensive to work properly.
    Having the auto-cannon and the ap hmg at 38 points like the spetsnaz makes the profile unattractive. Even with the AP numbers favor the spetsnaz against most targets.
    The AP mines make absolutely no sense for tank hunters with heavy guns. You are not going to discover such a valuable profile to just plant a mine in your deployment zone.
    The advanced deployment during N3 made tank hunters much more attractive and a real competitor to the spetsnaz.
    At 33 points, the missile launcher is too expensive and too fragile to work as ARO piece.

    The sniper spetsnaz is still unattractive.

    The scout minelayer with E/M mines was a very attractive profile during N3 for limited insertion games I think it would be valuable to bring it back as a TAK exclusive profile.
    It's an excellent excuse to field something that is not a strelok
    It's an excellent excuse to field a classic thematic profile that is sadly not that common on the table.
    It helps against very strong and aggressive spearheads, too common in N4. Specially if we acknowledge that half of TAK camo tokens are decoys and the ARO pieces of the sectorial are not that reliable.

    The army has a potential issue with visual modifiers (not camo tokens, only visual mods) Fire no longer burns ODD and the frontovick sniper is the only msv in all the sectorial. If something happens to that profile, like the very likely Salomonic nerf to all mixed link teams, the army will suffer heavily against those troops, being melee the only way left to deal with them.
     
  2. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Agreed with everything in that post

    but I think that mimetism -6 units are not that big of a deal because TAK can drown them in templates - Frontovik usually doesnt survive for long

    Tankhunter ML is pretty decent for Power Pack and missions in ITS 12 with those dumb saturation zone bubbles
     
    #2 fatherboxx, Sep 2, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
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  3. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    Well templates have issues, if you do that you can easily loose 2 to 3 troops with themplates and not get the desired result specially against high armor or high phis.
    Also the trade mentality is very dangerous, if unsuccessful the enemy side will have it even easier since you have lost several orders trying and several orders for the next turn if your template sources are dead, while your enemy still has that dangerous troop and 15 orders ( Or way more with avatar lists )

    And there are also difficult to reach troops like the hac tao missile launcher.

    Thats why it feels like a potential problem.


    Additionally, kuryers are a wasted opportunity and a waste of a profile slot. Traktor muls and kuryers should be properly redesigned.
     
  4. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Once he is revealed, Hac Tao is not much of a problem, vet can dice him with AP ammo pretty fast. And for non-armored mimetic-6 troops, HMG Spetsnaz is enough.

    engaging avatar with shooting weapons is not a good decision in first place (and he wipes the floor with Frontovik in active or reactive the same), thankfully Carmen and K9 strelok exist
     
  5. Kreslack

    Kreslack Unknown Ranger lead the way!

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    I really agree that tank hunters should have kept Forward Deployment 4". I found that extra bit of deployment space really valuable. And helped really cement them as a frontline heavy skirmisher/big game hunter. The chain of command profile was a frequent and reliable late game objective grabber and button pusher for me.


    Something does need to be done about the sniper Spetsnaz. It has so many problems. The easiest solution would be to make it the proper .5 SWC. I would look at it a bit more as a long range shooter then. AP is an option that does make it worth that 1.5 SWC, but then it steps on the toes of the Tank Hunter a bit more. And makes the AP sniper Scout irrelevant. But I think the AP sniper Scout already shouldn't exist. The Ohotnik is perfectly built to handle mid to long range, and to make use of the extra sniper range wastes your expensive infiltration skill.
    Since Scouts and Spetsnaz lore wise are both trained together and just different specialists of the Spetsnaz school. I think you would be better to consolidate their sniper profiles. Either give the sniper Scout marksmanship, and then remove the Spetsnaz. Or give the Spetsnaz an AP sniper, and remove the sniper Scout. I'm much more in favor of the later


    I also strongly agree that the EM minelayer Ohotnik scout needs to come back. That was my go to scout. He gave the midfield mines a bit more bit and provided competition to the insanely good minelayer Strelok.

    I love the Frontoviks to death. Visually they are one of my all time favorite units. But outside of the basic and rocket profile they are fragile and expensive. And the reactive templates on what feels like everything now makes them really hard to take. Those assault pistols were such a draw before, but now they practically never an option to use. With the exception of the the AP Sniper MSV Frontovik. He's still a frontrunner and go to choice in any link team I run. I keep wanting to take a full link of them but never can find a reason to justify it.

    The Kuryer is extremely dissapointing. It's such a minimal upgrade from the basic Mul. It didn't help that N4 double nerfed what little it had going for it. In N3 I would take two Kuryer Uragans for back line defense and two baggage muls as well. And all on one control unit. Now that each type one needs an individual controller I really dont even look at either. I think the Uragan and Katyusha needs some changes to their ranges to bring them out of their fairly useless state. Either increase positive range up to 24" or better, decrease their -3 ranges all to 0.
    (I'm kinda hoping we might see the Uragan as a secondary armament on an eventual TAG. think it would have been an interesting weapon to have had on the shotgun Ratnik.)

    I find with the order cap I rarely take Irmandinhos anymore either. Though I do think they will also pair up really well with an eventual TAG.

    Since I'm on other complaints. I'd really like to see Dynamos lose impetuous. Not having it before made them a really unique bike unit, that had a cool dragoon feel to them. Looking at the profile you could even just pull it from the dismounted profile for half the discount.
     
  6. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    Tankhunters really need help. Maybe the CoC profile could be used, but that is it.
     
  7. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    Add +1B to the base profile, with a modest price increase and Tank Hunters are fixed and effective at their role.

    I’d also suggest dropping the AP Mines on at least the SWC profiles if not all together. It really is just an equipment tax. I can’t imagine any scenario where my Autocannon would want to drop a mine.
     
    #7 McKaptain, Sep 5, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2021
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  8. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    I just picked up the Autocannon tankhunter model since I was tired of using the rifle tankhunter that came with my TAK starter... so I figured I'd try to make a list that included both figures - seemed like a way to add more camo to my TAK list and be able to get both the heavy weapon and the CoC. It was only then that I really came to terms with how expensive they are to field - almost no way to run more than one without some significant sacrifices elsewhere. Why the heck are they AVA 4?
     
  9. PappaChu

    PappaChu Well-Known Member

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    Fully agree with everything OP posted, adding on that the antipode assault pack (and to some extent the strelok k9 loadout) likely need adjusted due to how the new camo mechanics pair with the peripheral rules

    They seem great on paper, and they still have people scared from N3, but with how camo works in N4 I haven't been able to figure out how the assault pack is ever worth taking. With converted idles causing units to pop out of marker state, it effectively means that antipodes will lose camo for all of the following:
    • The controller activates to shoot smoke / their rifle
    • One pack member enters cc
    • A pack member superjumps while the others do not (suppose they could all superjump though)
    • A revealed pack member attempts to recamo while other members are still in marker state
    This is an issue for the strelok + k9 as well, since one will pop the other out of marker state for the following:
    • Antipode super jumps
    • One member shoots while the other does not
    • One member enters cc while the other does not
    • The antipode sensors
    • The strelok places a mine
    • A revealed member attempts to recamo while the other is in marker state
    Anyway, I suppose it's something you can play around, it just kinda sucks that such an iconic unit seems to be so unworth taking this edition, maybe someone can talk me into it though.

    *edit* Additionally, there seems to be some confusion with how spearhead works for peripheral control units regarding what happens if the spearhead unit dies. Does this cause the other members to disconnect? Or can a new spearhead be declared, allowing the surviving members to continue in a connected state to one another?
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    That's mostly unchanged since N3, Camouflaged State was always cancelled by skill Declaration, not by what was actually performed. So the K9 declaring Sensor has always revealed the Strelok, and the Strelok placing a mine always revealed the K9. Nothing new there.

    Controller revealing the 'podes by shooting is new, but they only take up one space in a Combat Group.

    Declaring Re-Camo will immediately cancel the state for everyone because it's an Entire Order that's not Cautious Move, the whole pack will then Re-Camo in the effects step of the Order, this is also not changed since N3.
     
    #10 colbrook, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
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  11. PappaChu

    PappaChu Well-Known Member

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    I could be wrong, but I had thought in N3 only the acting member would pop out of marker state for their declared order (whether legal or not), not a linked member in marker state, as the linked member could declare idle. From my understanding, forced idles breaking marker state was an addition to N4

    I'm not sure on the whole re-entering camo state after popping out of it either, as only one member would be declaring re-camo, the others having had re-camo converted to idle. I'd be happy to have the whole pack re-enter, maybe there is a rule interaction / faq ruling I'm unfamiliar with you are referencing?
     
  12. Fest

    Fest Member

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    Hello comrades. I have played my first TAK game on the weekend (coming from Military orders, and only my 9th game in total), and I came here today to see if I could work out how to use a Tankhunter Portable Autocannon. I love the model, but at 38 points, BS12 and B2? She's hitting on 9-12 depending on the range.
    I can't help comparing it to my beloved Trinitarian sniper, which doesn't hit as hard sure, but infiltration and MIM -6 and 10 points cheaper! I know you're not supposed to compare across factions but still...

    So yeah. Glad to see that I'm not the only one who has issues with Tankhunters... is there any chance that they're going to be changed or re-worked in the future?
     
  13. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    For me, the hint of how to use the Tankhunter is in the name - it's not meant to be going after the same types of units that a traditional sniper is. The Autocannon profile in particular is something you use to take down TAGs and big HIs that your other weapons can't make a dent in. It is a bit expensive, but it will feel great if you manage to one-shot an overly reckless TAG.
    For a more traditional sniper profile, I would look at the Scout or Frontovik.
     
  14. Fest

    Fest Member

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    That is a fair point, but I would argue that something with such a narrow use case should not be so expensive... or have some other way to increase its utility (forward deployment for example). Sure, Comrade Autocannon will be great if your opponent leaves a big fat TAG with 1 shot in ARO out for you to shoot... but anyone doing that while looking at unidentified TAK camo markers on the opposite side of the board is foolish.

    I feel that it's a "Win More" piece and overcosted. Like I said I want to love it, but with my limited experience I can't find a list where I'd want to take it.
     
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  15. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    It's not about the list, it's about the mission. Where you've got missions that reward putting large blobs of points in specific areas like quadrant control, you'll tend to see tags, HI etc used. Those provide a target rich environment for the likes of tank hunter that traditional weaponry tends to ping off
     
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  16. Fest

    Fest Member

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    I had not considered it in that light, I'll give it a try in that sort of mission.
    I must admit I don't like armour, as I always fail armour saves and my opponent ALWAYS passes them. I hit a tag with 2 x Panzerfausts last game and he passed 5 of 6 armour saves (AP+EXP)
     
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  17. holycannoli

    holycannoli Dancing to Kazak Kalinka

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    This right here. The tank hunter autocannon on paper might seem like a sniper shooting very scary rounds. But versus most snipers he'll simply lose due to many snipers being memetim -6 or having some nasty link options these days. That said, the tank hunter isn't a sniper, he's a trade piece. He's there to punish overly expensive door kickers as a single autocannon hit can red paste a lot of named characters, HI and other valuable targets. He's there to pulverize models that are pay a premium for defensive stats such a multiple wounds or armor, that your opponet may be running up into the midfield. He's not really prime sniper tower material, as we're TAK, we have plenty of options for that.

    TAK definitely has some winners in terms of profiles, and I actually don't mirror OP's sentiment that the scout loses out versus the strelok. An EM mine one I would adore if it made it's mighty return, and I wish CB would release a ojotnik scout as it's still a phenomenal profile and an Ariadnan classic. Back before TAK was a full sectoral, scouts in a russian themed force tended to be your area denial, your button pushers, and your scary snipers. Not we have the strelok to do that boring stuff.

    The Ojotnik on the other hand, a budget ap shock sniper with a solid range band that can really reach out and touch someone. I actually heavily prefer this to the T2 marksman a strelok can pack for around the same price. The extra PH gets him into position, and the extra point of BS can help. That said I've still had stunning success for using a scout to slice a few fireteams in order to prepare for my main push. Scouts can really maul a fireteam with some cheap stragglers out of position. Strelok's are more common because they add so much utility to a list and are priced to move, aka they're kind of nice in the "toys before boys" flavor of TAK. That said, I still find great uses for my scouts when I need the extra punch vs pure camo button pushing.

    USAriadna can maul a force relying on ODD due to it's high number of flamers. TAK not so much. On the other hand TAK is the reason the avatar vs 1 flashyboi joke exists. We have a lot of cheap WIP13 forward observers. Abuse that against the avatar or other big tags.
     
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  18. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @holycannoli agree with everyhing you said.

    Scouts (of every variety, but especially minelayers) are excellent in exploiting vulnerable single wound enemies from optimal starting position.

    Strelok with T2 marksman rifle is more aggressive heavy infantry hunter. Only fullcore MSV1 heavy infantry troopers are safe against it and even they can’t declare discover against them.

    Tank hunter fills multiple battlefield roles. Camo LT and CoC are main uses.
     
  19. Phillimon

    Phillimon Kazak Diplomatic Operative

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    Hmm haven't really thought about running Streloks with T2 marksman rifle. What's yalls experience with it?

    The strelok being BS 11 makes me question if the load out is worth it.
     
  20. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    T2 marksman rifle is a high powered weapon. All weapons become more powerful if put on a camo or forward deployment platform.

    T2 marksman rifle has a +3 rangeband below 24”. Three attack die make it reliable in winning f2f rolls and it can cause 6 wounds during single activation. In comparison HMG has (sometimes) better rangeband, more attack die, higher damage but can only cause 4 wounds during single activation. Autocannon has (sometimes) better rangeband, less attack die, higher damage and AP and cause 6 wounds during single activation. What I’m trying to say that T2 marksman rifle is in many cases better weapon than HMG or Autocannon. Similar effect can be seen with combine army plasma weapons, which also ignore cover because they are template weapons. In addition, Strelok T2 marksman rifle profile also has shock mines, which suit this aggressive profile perfectly.

    Regarding Scout AP Sniper, it’s cheap. When you desperate want that midfield sniper and 4 extra points for list, you should definitely consider downgrading your Scout.
     
    #20 Tanan, Sep 18, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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