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Fireteam changes incoming

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hachiman Taro, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Additionally with Rems now going prone it can be difficult to keep dead it down once it's down due to requiring 3 wounds to remove, however unlike most other snipers it doesn't have a sidearm to fall back on for when you get up close and personal, the others can still put a good enough fight under 8, so unless you have a template you are best to try and engage at the 8-16. funnily enough the best answer to these pieces is to put a pitcher across the board to drop a repeater nearby and carpet bomb them.

    All smoke does is give you a chance at ignoring it, doesn't help you kill it as the second you pull the trigger the smoke becomes more or less meaningless.
     
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  2. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    this seems like tunnel vision around a single piece on the table
    what if I told you that you can win the game without ever engaging the non-msv aro directly
    like throwing a dog into its teammates
    or freely doing cards if it is countermeasures
     
  3. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I mean you could and in a lot times can (though if it's countermeasures you have other bigger problems), and if dog is an option then you are playing ariadna and again have other bigger problems.

    A lot of those options can also work for the other snipers too. It's just not efficient, why tax yourself 3-4 orders every turn maybe avoiding it and doing other stuff or spend 4-5 in a single turn to put it down and not worry about it.

    Speaking more generally again.
    It's more that more often than not it is difficult to ignore it or get close enough to kill it's friends without getting past it, which is often due to terrain which will allow it to have dominating presence so it can't be avoided while completing mission objectives. Rarely an issue on my local community's tables but every now and then it happens (usually when someone isn't paying attention during table set up) and it can be crippling, and then I look at tables from tournaments and communities elsewhere in the country and see tables far less terrain dense or with other stuff that would allow a BS19 sniper to be oppressive meaning you need to plan on how to make the kill not avoid.
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Isn't that ignoring the entire tactical layer of the game?
    You don't have to beat that thing in a fair and square contest as the active player.
    Smoke, Eclipse, White Noise, Albedo, Marker State, Infiltrators, AD.... everyone has options to not a Core linked ARO team play on their own terms.
    Add "ARM8 TAG in Cover and roll dice until success" to the list vs Snipers.

    From where I stand Sectorial limitations make it vitally important to use that linked ARO piece to oppose their evil twin - high performance long range Active Turn pieces. If everything on the table has to keep their head down during Reactive turns, the Active player has too many angles and too deep an Order pool to oppose with just Mines, Perimeter, Hacking and DTWs as defenses.
    For many Sectorials these tools are scarce, their approach has to be one of active opposition instead of passive obstacles, for lack of options to even attempt anything else.
     
  5. micropoint

    micropoint Member

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    Well, the sectorials have other things going on as well such as different AVAs, profiles and so on. Even a link team without bonuses would be usable in some contexts to save orders with movement. However, even then I think that at the end of the day the +3 BS would still be the most important thing that most sectorials have going on for them and if this were to be removed it seems to me that vanilla factions would get the edge generally.

    I can also agree with strong sniper ARO not being the most interesting part of the game but it is still part of the game I wouldn't personally want to see removed either and I also feel the oppressiveness is mitigated by terrain. If +3BS goes I think we won't see many snipers aside maybe Hidden Deployment.
     
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  6. micropoint

    micropoint Member

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    Yeah, I think you nailed it. I'd probably rather see 6th sense removed over the BS bonus, would be interesting to see this dynamic on table.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Whether you think it's whining or not, I can only say that it is a fact that Dakini, Grenzer and Bolt snipers are a lot more potent than you make them out to be. Ignore this knowledge at your own detriment.

    Of course, everyone isn't equal in the face of damage 13 templates. You need to get there to use them, and whether that is possible or not is an analysis that is so damned complicated that I won't bother. And it's kind of tangential to the discussion, other than Sixth Sense allowing ZoC dodges, of course.
     
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  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Sure, a lot of the most frustrating examples of this have been times I deployed poorly, or my opponent saw a good line that I overlooked, or I just happened to bring the wrong set of tools for the matchup at a pickup game because I was messing around with weird list ideas.

    But on the other hand, I don't really feel like I necessarily have massively better solo shooter access when playing vanilla instead of sectorials. The vast majority of models in the game are in at least one sectorial, which includes a lot of the "high performance long range active turn pieces". And fireteam bonuses cut both ways; sectorials can use them to buff their active turn hunting just as much as they can use them to buff their static defenses (although both at the same time might be tricky...).

    We also shouldn't forget the humble Haris. +3 BS is getting a lot of the coverage here, but +1 B is a huge benefit, in both active and reactive turns (but especially in reactive). Being able to react on B 2 gives fireteams significantly increased chances of survival, or of at least slowing the enemy's advance. (This is the crux of complaints about N4 Flash Pulse play, I believe). The active turn burst bonus also allows a number of kind of marginal low burst weapons to become very legitimate threats at no direct cost increase.

    It's no secret that I don't like the current min-max mixed fireteam optimization game. The way I see it, fireteams offer several bonuses (movement, burst, sixth sense, BS) while having some downsides (coherency, cost). Price-optimized mixed teams ameliorate a lot of the cost downside, and static defensive fireteams do a lot to mitigate the annoyance of navigating terrain while maintaining cover and coherency. The result is oppressive AROs being the norm, because a top-line sniper with 4 cheap cheerleader friends can dominate a zone of the board while providing regular orders for other, more mobile, attack- and objective-oriented units, which you have plenty of points left over to pick up.
     
  9. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Thinking about it, stripping 4- and 5- man bonuses might be interesting to test.

    It would retain the massive value of B2 in reactive, while allowing Surprise counterplays (or smoke tricks if they don´t have a visor), and the increased BS on mismatched fireteams (one BS14-15 wildcard in a cheap inferior team). It also has marginal value in getting up to 5 bodies moved with one order.
     
  10. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    There would be 0 reasons to use a Sectorial at that point outside of AVA desires (Shasvastii mainly). Everything else can be done better in Vanillas.
     
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  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    TBH it would take me too long to read this whole thing. It exploded!

    I do like the idea that fireteams that are all one troop get fireteam bonuses over a mixed team. It kind of makes sense to me story-wise. It can help to stop a lot of min-maxing. Though if they don't change the AVA of Zhanshi in WB or even IA I'll be pissed because then there's no way to make a team with out it being mixed.
     
  12. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Burst 2 reactive with mixed links, and optimized Haris not good enough for you? Ok.
     
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  13. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    All but worthless against so many active threats. It's never the B2 that worries me in my active turn, it's whether or not the odds of them hitting are reasonably good. I have no worries about picking apart a link that has no Sixth Sense or BS +3. That becomes pretty trivial.
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The problem is I see the other extreme a lot, where people have this idea of "If I can't circumvent your ARO piece I'm gonna complain about imbalance."
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup, and the only one of those that seems to be in a dedicated shooting faction is the Bolt... like, I can see the argument that PanO should have shooters that have reactive shooting head and shoulders above everyone else. For ALEPH and Nomads? Nah, they have too many other tools.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I still maintain removing Nimbus grenades was a huge mistake. Their entire point of existing was as a tool to help deal with crack tier ARO fireteams.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yeah, they were an interesting tool that way.
     
  18. SpectralOwl

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    Seconding this. The only thing I really wanted on a Merc in late N3 was Nimbus Grenades so they could get into all the Vanilla Factions without waiting on a rework.
     
  19. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    On +1b bonus, probably shouldn't stack with the existing profile based +1b bonus (which should apply in reactive).
     
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  20. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    They removed a lot of good and interesting counterplay rules and kit for StReAmLiNiNg and sImPlIfIcAtIoN in the edition change that ended up being a massive negative to play (such as Burnt, nimbus and sniffers) but left shit that does practically nothing (Deactivators).
     
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