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Fireteam changes incoming

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hachiman Taro, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would like to stress that while mixed fireteams are causing a bit of a bumpy road and leads to some pretty tired list designs, the issues with the Fireteams is that they cause an incredible spike in performance when specific units are involved - and these units are not necessarily wildcards!

    It is my opinion that the core issue with Fireteams is and will be the Core fireteam.

    (I'm actually not seeing vanilla as being particularly strong, btw.)

    You fail to show how this is actually a problem enough that every. Single. Sectorial. Should be allowed to counter-act.

    It is essentially a Mim-6 that requires an external trooper and one to three orders to stick down (with only the Kamau and Nisses having both Mimetism, Fireteam and MSV2 - they don't have access to smoke), and it only really works in the active turn. I fail to see how this is an actual problem and not a failure of the player to deal with.

    (Not to mention that Sixth Sense also makes counter-plays to snipers of the Kamau, Grenzer, Dakini, Bolt, Nisses, etc, variety very difficult and makes sniper of Grenzer and Bolt varieties in particular utterly nuts)
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I approach it more from "is every sectorial without an MSV2 sniper who can be in a core fireteam balanced around that, consciously?"

    And the answer is, almost certainly not.

    Because the only real counter is an MSV2 core piece, and not every faction has access to that. If you want to call it a player failure they want to play sectorials that don't have access to those, that's up to you.

    Yeah, I see a bigger problem with those profiles than sixth sense on fireteams.
     
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  3. Kai Wren

    Kai Wren Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure this is fair. This begs the question 'should every sectorial be able to field a strong linked ARO piece that can deal with smoke from turn one?' because in later turns if you want to have your ARO pieces out, you can (and should) have put effort into taking out your opponent's smoke options. Then it can be safe for your non-SS, non-MSV2 options to come out of hiding.

    And I don't think every sectorial should be able to do that. Those that can field linked MSV pieces and have a strong ARO presence from turn 1 should have that as part of their playstyle and factional identity. If everyone wants the same thing out of their linkteams, that inherently means that the playstyles between sectorials start to feel very similar because everyone is trying to solve the problems presented in the same ways. Different sectorials should have different tempo to their games, with some going for a dominating alpha strike, and some others looking to come back hard in turns two or three.

    I've found Infinity to be at its best when I'm trying to solve problems with a toolset which has no clear optimal choices, and a lot of the time as I've been exploring what my collection can do now, it does feel like 'a few cheap bodies and one or two good bodies with long range guns' feels like a clear optimal choice in a lot of instances. The cases where that isn't true (like JSA) it's only true because they literally can't take them.

    In my ideal world (though I doubt this is where they are heading because it adds more complexity not less and that seems to be something they are moving away from in general) you'd get different link bonuses depending on whether the team was fully light, medium or heavy infantry designed to amplify those unit roles, and another set for mixed teams that mostly just lets you move a diverse and team up the board. I don't know what that would look like particularly - a full 5 person HI team is always going to be so expensive it's difficult to find the mark between useless, viable and dominating - but then I'm not a game designer.

    I am very curious to see what change DOES come though, because I think that'll give us a lot of insight into where the designers feel the problems were. I've liked most of the refinements from N3 to N4 so I'm looking forward to seeing what Corvus Belli do with the refinement of the fireteams section of the rules.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No. The only real counter to MSV2 core piece is White Noise and Eclipse, which far from all sectorials have. Incidentally, your favourite sectorial has one of those in a very competent package. Of course, there's also bullshit pitcher-hacking. Which OCF is very, very, very far from being bad at.

    But, the funny thing here is; White Noise isn't a good counter to MSV2 core piece (and this is the fun part right here) because of sixth sense.
     
  5. Magno

    Magno Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    There are plenty of counters to smoke first turn and linked MSV isn't something that should be available to everyone.

    Infinity in 1st edition pre Human Sphere had very little asymmetry in regards to force composition stemming in large part from limited unit availability.

    In Infinity, there has always been many counters to problem looking at your from across the table save for not having enough orders (an issue that only exists in ITS scenarios).

    Deployment is a powerful tool.
    Mines, area control, etc..
    "Spider in waiting" with hidden deployment.
    Even luring the opposition into a false sense of success by presenting a easy target that burns down their orders by offering a sacrifice.

    MSV is not the "only real counter". Its the most straight forward counter.
     
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  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    How many core linked MSV snipers have folks been seeing on the table? I've seen surprisingly few.

    Nobody plays Varuna or Winterfor. SAA can field the Bagh Mari but often the Regular Sapper is better value. The Haidao is great but I'm not seeing a lot of IA, and when I do they're often running an offensive core. The Frontovik is really the big one, but I haven't seen Kosmoflot running them either. I've seen surprisingly little TAK on the table, but it's the main place I've seen linked MSV snipers.

    The Bolt is king of the linked MSV snipers, of course, but you sure pay for it.

    Personally the one I fear the most is the Haidao, but I don't think I've seen one on the table since N3.
     
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  7. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    When I do bring Djanbazan Core in QK, I prefer to go for HMG and SMR rather than Sniper.
    But can't say Djan are my do-not-leave-home-without Core in QK.
     
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  8. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I find this thread hilarious.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I see it all the time, but that's kind of besides the point.
    I see MSV + smoke much less often.
    I almost never see anyone bothering with White Noise, though, 'cause of how iffy it is to put down and how seldom you can actually make effective use of it due to 6S on ARO pieces.
     
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  10. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    As Vanilla Nomad I used White noise through a repeater a bunch of time. Usually there is a fireteam pointman that watch over an objective and blocking LOF is good enough to send a specialist and activating the objective. Now I know that we Nomads are priviliged, but that for saying you don't always have to shoot at something, sometimes blocking LOF is enough.
     
  11. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    Requoting my post from the N4 balance megathread a couple months back. The fact that bonuses scale with fireteam size is what makes wildcard links so powerful, as it incentivizes stuffing a high value model into a cheap link. I really hope that CB changes fireteam rules to make the *type* of link what gives the bonus, regardless of how many members are in the link, and then restricts what type of link can be joined by a wildcard (ie. only the base unit and "counts as" units can form a core).


    I also want to second some of the comments around MSV2 core links. My primary opponent plays Aleph and always runs Atalanta. She is such a good gunfighter that I feel compelled to bring a Djanbanazan core link to counter her. This lets me challenge Atalanta's smoke tricks, while at the same time it prevents my opponent from using white noise or albedo to pick off the Djanbazan. Best case scenario, the white noise blocks Atalanta and the Djanbazan's from drawing LoF to each other, so Atalanta can try to hunt around the edges, but I've still forced my opponent to waste a bunch of orders.

    Removing Sixth Sense would help, but I think there are some other issues regarding Zero-Vis tricks and the limited availability of Eclipse and White Noise that still need to be addressed. MSV2 just feels like a must-take in so many circumstances.
     
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  12. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    Tangent to the topic of this thread, but why would you prefer the SMR over the Sniper? I've never thought to take the SMR - I usually always take the sniper (even solo) and take the HMG if I'm going to run a haris or core. The extra damage, AP, and range of the Sniper feels like its worth 2 points over the SMR and I rarely max out my SWC, so the 0.5 cost doesn't usually factor in to the decision.
     
  13. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    If I take a Djan core (inc. Djan-based Core, as in one cheapened with Hafza or Odalisques), I intend to use it offensively. For long range, the HMG will do the job, but if it is gone, Shock Marksman Rifle provides me enough extra range enough - at the same time bringing better Burst than the Sniper.
    And well, usually that 0,5 SWC is being spent elsewhere ;)

    Now, I can't say I have played many games of N4 at all, much lestt N4 QK (Covid, damn you!), so that's how I feel about it. Can't claim it is the one true way of doing it - by no means :)
     
  14. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    On what planet?

    +2 ARM, MSV1, Mimitism that don't cost you mobility and a wider silhuette size AND Minelayer. Same SWC cost.
    With how trivial it is to get cover in N4, Sapper is no longer a good selling point and now that MSV1 can shoot through smoke and be MSV2 when subject to an attack (fireteam core), the Sapper profile is almost a dead profile.
     
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  15. SpectralOwl

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    As someone who both used the Smoke+MSV2 combo and had it used on them back in N3, I still find it a far preferable option to invincible linked ARO. Smoke-shooting is often just ODD with extra orders, while the likes of the Kamau link can lock down a whole board if specific tools aren't available.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, before you were allowed to declare AROs that weren't valid you could use a coordinated order or fireteam to ARO-bait the MSV piece and get unopposed (or opposed via Dodge) shots. So even with Sixth Sense White Noise handled them fine.

    What is the actual problem is that White Noise is not spread around enough, or in a thoughtful fashion.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's trivially easy to hide a smoke-tossing piece when impetuous moves are optional.

    They should, but there's not that level of thoughtfulness put into it. Much better to have fireteams have a blanket resistance to Smoke + MSV than it being spread willy-nilly around different sectorials, with some sectorials being haves, and others being have-nots (with nothing to make up for it).

    That would be nice, but mostly what I see with Sectorials is a power gradient, barring Ariadna (no MSV 2 or hacking) and Nomads (The best hacking, bar none).
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The point is if you take away the ability of fireteams to ignore the -6 for shooting through smoke they'll be required to have a meaningful ARO presence, especially turn 1.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I use it when it's relevant, but it's the fact that it requires a roll, and you don't get a re-roll with an EVO hacker anymore that makes it cumbersome to use.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I have to stress, that I don't particularly find a problem with MSV in cores, nor wildcards in cores, but with strong sniper core AROs (or strong ARO pieces with a similar function). It's typically the combination of mimetism and a MOD-defeating mechanism (e.g. MSV or Marksmanship) that pushes these units to sufficiently high effective comparable ballistics skills that can not be defeated thanks to 6S that does it.

    The silver lining is the cost of the link and the physical size of the link. The wildcards we most often see are the ones that break this silver lining, but the quality that makes them break it is not being a wildcard - non-wildcards can have similar qualities.

    1st paragraph: That kinda required a sacrificial piece (or really close proximity). I built a bunch of lists with a Panggoling as sacrificial piece, but never got to use it because people around my meta don't try to cover the entire board with their AROs anymore. But with the rules we live with now, going forward that's not coming back.

    2nd paragraph: Yup yup.

    Yeah, it's only marginally more reliable than unlinked Smoke Grenade Launcher -.-;;
     
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