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Fireteam changes incoming

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hachiman Taro, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    Since Triad and Enomotarchos are still separate rules, they could define it separately. Like, Fireteam Core and Haris link bonuses are constrained by the model type.
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Or it could only be the 4 and 5 man bonuses are dependant on composition.
     
  3. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    I am curious to see how these changes will affect armies where their Line Infantry lack the ability to even make a full core without Wildcards such as White Banner.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sixth Sense should stay, because otherwise we're back to Smoke + MSV trivially removing Fireteam ARO pieces.

    I think wildcard fireteams should be limited, but this needs to come with a comprehensive overall of fireteam options for every sectorial to make sure it's balanced. Unfortunately I've encountered a decent amount of people who, when presented with the idea that fireteams are keeping sectorials competitive, react with "So?! Vanilla *should* be better, it's the proper way to play!" which is just obnoxious.

    Overall in my opinion fireteams are a bit of a kludge to make sectorials viable - I would actually love for sectorials to not have fireteams, but to be more balanced around exclusive profiles and AVA shifts. I like sectorials more than vanilla factions for the flavor and interesting limitations they bring - but fireteams are what we're stuck with unless they *really* overhaul the game.

    For a serious question - how viable would every Morat Vanguard, Unidron, or Nox profile be if it didn't have a fireteam?
     
    #24 Hecaton, Aug 20, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
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  5. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    So why would you ever take a Wildcard ever then?
     
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  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The crusade of people only out for their own benefit with complete disregard for how much that would screw them over in the long run never ceases to amaze me.

    The mental hoops you have to jump through to argue for a Link nerf next to the current Vanillas are mind boggling.
    Then again... also very entertaining to watch *grabs popcorn*
     
  7. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I'm all for Wildcards not benefittibg from a 5-man link bonus, unless they are in their "native" unit. Want super-b firefighter turn into a god-like one? Cash out for a whole squad of them. Or pop one into a cheaper unit to upgrade it, while only getting +1B/SS.
     
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  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    wait, what??? Is there a link or something??? Oo

    Removing 6th sense from fireteams would mean, for me, removing it from the game as it would be a niche skill like Scavenger in N3, or the sudden rebalance of a lot of units that would gain 6th sense suddenly.

    That would be a simple detail that reduces wildcard effectivity, without a complete rewrite or having two different fireteam rules, yeah. But it would kill a lot of Haris that need that, so a review of AVA, costs, etc... would be needed too.

    Most characters from SP count as, it would be easy to add that to those that were promoted to wildcard (for example, acmon would be a wildcard that counts as a dactyl. The headscratch would come with Thamirys, since he was a myrmidon before joining with the thorakitai in order to be away from the insufferable prima-donna that is Achilles in the Nevsky comics XD)

    AVA and costs would need to be reviewed in most late-N3 and new N-4 troops, for certain.

    The Unidron at least is a Dogged remote, with a Plasma carbine/sniper. The Morat Vanguard only has the Medikit profile... and the Nox... well, frankly speaking, Shas is designed around slotting the characters into the only Core or few Haris available to the sectorial.
    So are some other sectorials, btw.

    I disagree with the notion that fireteams need a nerf, but they certainly need a lateral step in some regards. And designing the game so 1-2 dudes work the team while the other three are there solely for the bonuses is quite boring, and too similar to "the unit has several models because each casualty needs to remove one, instead of having a wounds marker for a single unit" :/
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I do not see this as in any way shape or form a necessary function of a fireteam. While vanilla factions have a variety of units to field from, this is not a tactic available to more than a few units and then without the hefty direct damage bonuses that fireteams provide and they're still fully capable of fighting back, not to mention how badly this skews certain MSV1 units in Cores.

    Sixth Sense is the main thing they need to remove from Fireteams. It trivialises defences and it neuters a very large amount of counter-plays that already come with pretty heavy penalties.
     
  10. Lareon

    Lareon Well-Known well-knower

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    I'm going to take an highly unpopular road, but I have to say I always liked mixed fireteams. (And Sixth Sense too, but for a different reason)

    Vanilla and sectorials, at least in my opinion, always revolved around two different approaches to flexibility: Vanilla armies have a strategic flexibility, always being able to deploy the right tool for the right scenario thanks to the huge roster they can pick from. On the other hand sectorials take advantage in a tactical flexibility, being able to bring the tools they have in the right position, always at hand. So, Vanilla armies answer the question "do I have the right unit to do the job?", sacrificing some flexibility during the game (being able to move a single unit at time) while Sectorials "do I have the tool I need here?" knowing they need to figure out a way to use what they have.

    Following this approach it only makes sense that a fireteam should be flexible and be able to work as a swiss-knife in the field. A mono-unit FT gives me almost nothing on the field, if not the small differences that the various profiles may have. Here wildcards and "count as" units can give the variety that is needed to the sectorials to claim a sort of flexibility during the game, balancing the disadvantage during list building.

    So, I'm not a real fan of this "tax the fireteams" matter: a fireteam is useful only if all the units inside it are useful. Otherwise it's just a weight.
    I saw many voices against the "wildcard that does everything and the other just follows" concept, but I must say... isn't the reason cheerleaders exist? Those are two different approaches (wildcard as main piece vs wildcard as support) currently used in the game, but I can't see the fuss about them.

    About sixth sense: Infinity is a game in which units tend to be quite frail, and to die quite fast when grouped together. There are so many ways to annihilate crowds (missile launchers, mines, flamethrowers.. now even simple shotguns) that this skill is only a little edge to make a fireteam (that requires units to be near each other) survivable enough to be useful. Still, sixth sense shut down only the most "common" approaches (namely smoke+msv or "I take you from behind"), leaving the fireteam exposed to countless number of shenanigans
     
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  11. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Link teams are fine, as annoying as they are. The biggest problem continues to be the horrendous point formula CB uses to create units. Some are ultra optimized, others are just plain bad.
     
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  12. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Ssshhhh, don't bring up the points formula.

    CB doesn't like it when you bring up the points formula. And they ESPECIALLY don't like it when you point out that there's a lot of units where the points don't make any sense.

    Like Aragoto Senkenbutai in JSA paying 4 points to "upgrade" their Boarding Shotgun to a Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Bolts paying only 2 points, and Kum Bikers instead SAVING a point by "downgrading" their Boarding Shotgun to a Rifle + Light Shotgun. 5 points to upgrade a Rifle+LSG to Combi+LSG? Yeah that seems fair. Or just compare poor Qiang in IA to the Shang Ji w/ AP HMG. Or practically any other HI vs. Evaders.

    I'm honestly not even sure if CB has a QA department, but if they do, they seriously need to take a look at the points formula.
     
  13. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Been saying it for ages, this game needs a real good cull. Its too big and too bloated. The points system has been stretched to its limit and doesn't work for all cases.

    As for fireteams; if vanilla is doing so well vs sectoral, then why are we all sat around wishing for nerfs to sectoral? If anything, the fireteam rules need a boost. They need to be more resilient to template weapons, need to be more impactful to make up for their shortcomings.
    I'd be up for removal of the one-core-only rule myself. Would make a second group of 5 a lot more useful if you could have a cheap team of alguaciles or metros in there to go run out and grab some objectives or lay down some defensive fire whilst group one does the majority of the legwork
     
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  14. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    I am definitely on the side that Fireteams could use some changes, but not direct nerfs. With how well Vanilla armies are doing, and how aggressive/offensive the game has turned, why would you nerf the one defensive advantage Sectorials have?
     
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  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Especially now they can speculatively declare shoot so you can't coord bait the sniper to deal with it. at the moment it's a case of try to ignore the BS 19 sniper (difficult for a lot of factions, unless the sniper in question is the Dakini) or try to brute force it.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, those counter-plays do not come with enough downsides, and they obviate fireteam AROs (or any ARO) something fierce.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If you're a vanilla player who's frustrated that fireteams exist, it makes sense lol.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, the real reason here is that fireteams are of vastly differing power based on the amount of cheaty wildcards involved - new Corregidor is a particularly egregious example of this. The "Jaguar" Fireteam with the Mimetism -6 Vostok in it is atrocious. (The Mimetism -6 Vostok profile is a problem too). If we were being sane, the idea would be to flatten the power differential between the different sectorials based on those measures. There's another issue, though, which is that there's a segment of the playerbase thinks that fireteams shouldn't be part of the game at all.
     
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  19. SpectralOwl

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    Have you ever actually tried a mono-unit team? Because they're good, even excellent in a lot of cases. Even a plain Fusilier Core link offers high-Burst active gunners, empowered ARO pieces, and Specialists to press buttons, all for slightly above the cost of one Swiss Guard which shares a BS score. The only reason they're not still an entirely viable and valuable option is the presence of Wildcards that do everything at once- and boost Vanilla even more, since they don't really need the shooting modifiers that much. Options like the Unknown Ranger or Evader AP Spitfire Engineer do much more damage to Sectorials than they help, since by collecting all scoring capabilities in one unit they replicate the basic efficiency of Fireteams by themselves.

    I don't actually think mixed-links as a whole should go, they brighten up the table and can be very thematic, but CB need to exercise a lot more restraint at both the faction and unit design levels to avoid needing a major rework to restore balance.
     
  20. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    There is!

     
    #40 TheDiceAbide, Aug 21, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
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