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Female models in Infinity

Discussion in 'Off-Topic English' started by 1337Bolshevik, Jul 25, 2021.

  1. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    Let me say, cause it is off topic.

    I like female miniatures, but they looked too similar for me. And may be there was too much fan-service (before I saw some old miniatures xD)
    So, It was a little frustrating to see lots of girls with model look. Even in Ariadna, where is no cubes and LHosts.
    But anyway, I am fine with it. Just curious.
    Of course I am happy to have well looking sculpts in my army) keep it this way!
     
  2. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, people who don't care are probably not engaged in the conversation.

    Folks who are defending the status quo DO care. Whether they care about maintaining that status quo specifically, or feel compelled to defend the company from what they see as accusations of racism, they care.

    I want to be very explicit in this point. I do NOT think that CB is racist, nor are the majority of the fans. It's super common among artists (including writers) to just "go with what they know." As has been alluded to several times, a lot of the game is Eurocentric, and its probably because the makers are European. That's fine as a place to start from.

    But the game does have a worldwide audience now, and it may be a good idea to expand those horizons. It's not going to happen on its own; it's going to take deliberate action to do so. I think it's a good idea. I think that doing so will not affect the vast majority of the folks who buy the game. For those it does affect, it's likely to be a positive change for them.

    I think CB has been aware of the feedback it's gotten and has been responsive in good ways. Compare the old Caledonian Volunteer Grenade Launcher with the newer female Caledonian Volunteers. Now I'm just providing more feedback.
     
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  3. Vocenoctum

    Vocenoctum Well-Known Member

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    It assumes a negative stance, rather than benefit of the doubt. I don't think having the discussion about more diversity among PanO is bad in any way, but the problem comes in when the art direction is portrayed as white-washing or that PanO HAS to be 85% Asian or it's wrong. They CREATED PanO. CB made a faction that is composed of India, Philipines, Australia, Europe, some South America and many other places. They just didn't put a priority on making sure the unique characters are fully reflective of that diversity. But, there are plenty of reasons, in game, that they might not be. You'd prefer they had more diversity, and that feedback is part of the use of a forum like this, but there's not much discussion once it goes to the point of having to justify why you're in the discussion.


    Nyah, you don't need an excuse to be involved in a polite discussion, other than being bored. He's got to be here as moderator anyway, so participating seems almost mandatory. It just seems an end to the discussion if we start assigning motives to people involved in the discussion on that level.

    The problem of course is that it's not a Eurocentric game, overall. The anime influences are well established, but even if you consider PanO to be Eurocentric, there's still Yu Jing and Haqqislam that are specificially not. Nomads are more diverse than PanO I think, and I've mentioned O12 a few times since they should be the most diverse, but the discussion remains focused on PanO as if they're the entirety of the game. I prefer mostly faceless types for my wargames.

    It'd be interesting to see where Infinity is actually popular. I have no clue what, if any, wargames might be popular in India. I doubt broadening the artwork would be in any way detrimental, but when reading the new replies the idea popped into my head of being in a game and realizing the opponent is enjoying the game a bit too much because of who they get to shoot at...

    I've never run into much, er, we'll call it oddity, in my wargaming. Online I've read stories about 40k folks that were odd, but local guys are fine. I have heard some of the Bolt Action guys get a little odd, but I don't play that since as mentioned I prefer my guys to be faceless (skinks, necrons, ALEPH, or whatever).
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well the fact that they created PanO makes it all the more of a head-scratcher. I wouldn't say that anyone's asking for an 85% Asian PanO, but the overwhelmingly white PanO is really weird.

    And I'll be honest, I don't think there are *any* reasons in-game that justify the current apparent demographic makeup of PanO. They just haven't been put forward.
     
  5. Vocenoctum

    Vocenoctum Well-Known Member

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    Overwhelmingly white meaning that the percentage of models that are not fully enclosed, are white so long as you assume that all models that are not black are white? The PanO support pack for instance, is the guy European white? South American? Hell, Filipino? I don't think he's Indian, but I don't really know. He's probably mixed race, so how do we categorize it? The woman in the same set is blond, so we'll assume she's white, but is that really accurate?

    I'm all for more diversity, but there's also a big case of seeing what you want to see here. Is it odd that at least what, 4 named characters are/were part of the Svalarheima Nordic Supremacy group? Sure, but it's also likely just that someone likes reformed types like that because they watched a bunch of American action movies.

    I've mentioned the RPG stuff, but in the actual N4 books, there is no justification for why white people are less likely to wear helmets than other ethnicities, that is true. The idea that they should justify it and that any of the reasons that have been mentioned in the thread are just not good enough is where it gets weird for me. It takes the discussion from the "this is what I would like" into the "this is why I'm right" and generally doesn't lead very far.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    What you're implying here, that we should just assume everyone in PanO with an enclosed helmet is non-Euro, is pretty silly. And I'm going by the studio paint schemes and official art - obviously everyone can paint their minis how they want.

    Maybe, but given that Huangdi's PanO population is already stated to be majority Scandinavian, it's not surprising that they're portrayed that way. As far as their specific backstories go, I don't really care.

    I think we can talk about a depiction failing on a somewhat objective level - and the depiction of PanO as a faction in art and official paint schemes has failed to portray it as multiethnic in the way it is described in much of the setting material.

    I don't think they should "justify it," I would just like to see more non-Euro, specifically Southeast Asian, portrayal in PanO, because it would be a more faithful representation of the setting.
     
  7. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    Two things: First, the argument of Combined or Tohaa not having 'white people' is disingenuous at best and malicious at worst. It's either sarcasm, which doesn't help our conversation, or it deflects the argument from representation to sci-fi speculation, at which point the conversation changes and is no longer about real human races being represented in our game. Please let's avoid that.
    Second, in regards to ALEPH, I really think that is a good example of how the Ethnical bias exists in this game. Think of it: both the Vedic and the Hellenic sectorials are based off Hindi and Greek people, respectively, and yet their art doesn't reflect hindi or greek looks at all. They all look vaguely caucasian and pretty.
    Look, as someone mentioned earlier and I'll reiterate: CB is not racist. There's not a single racial caricature in recent memory and it is clear, at least to me, that they take the idea of representation seriously and want to make it good and right. So far, I think they've done a good job, and I would just like to see it improved.
    The way they can improve now is taking a route similar to Aristeia and start showing us Infinity characters with different ethnicities, skin colors, etc. And yes, this does include the green/pink skinned crazy people from Nomads and the like, but not just them.
    I think there's room for improvement, and Fiddler's very well done and thoughtful background shows that CB really cares. So I am hopeful for the future here.
     
  8. Vocenoctum

    Vocenoctum Well-Known Member

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    You obviously didn't understand the point at all, but then go further to ascribe motives to me in the process. Meanwhile worrying about a conversation that you had to bump from a week ago to preserve?
    Again, the point is, there's no point to pretend we're talking about representation in the game of Infinity when it's about the sectorial of Pano or other specific selections. No one is scrubbing the artwork of Yu Jing to determine if the ethnicities are properly represented.
    I've already mentioned some of the things, but the Vedic thing I'll repeat again I guess. The Vedic call signs are not used to represent the ethnicity of the operatives within the units, they're call signs for a unit. Should/ Could they be a more diverse cast? Easily possible, but an Asura is not Indian, nor is a Deva, nor any of the other call signs.

    As I've said before, their background in anime and similar styles and a limited pool of artists meant they stuck to a certain style. They've been making efforts to diversify things further, and have always, IMO, done a good job of having a wide selection of nationalities and such in game background and unit creation. They just lack it when it comes to Iconic Characters or whatever you'd like to call them, and I'm not sure how many of such characters they have or plan to do in any case.
    Again though, there is no need to assume that the general military is representative of the population, nor to assume that the few visible examples are representative of the composition of the general militaries. We'd like more diversity because we'd like more diversity.
     
  9. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Mate, I specifically pointed out that it was a problem with the argument itself, not with whatever motives you had to use it. It is not a good argument and it deviates the point of the conversation.
    and I bumped it from about ten days ago because I haven't even checked the forum since then, I just followed the notification once I logged in earlier today.

    This is kind of an odd thing to say when we take the context of ALEPH and its naming conventions. Because: A) ALEPH can make its people look whatever the hell it wants, and B) ALEPH choose the names for their mythological connotations. So giving an Hindi name then making said unit look like a blonde Caucasian lady is odd at best and gets even weirder when you consider the Homeridae, which are supposed to be ALEPH's poster faction, and allegedly how ALEPH wants to remake humanity in their image.

    So, one could be malicious and say that ALEPH's vision for Humanity is all white. Which I don't think it's the case, it's more likely the game producers just forgot to put some non-whites in there because they're mostly white themselves. Which isn't wrong, but isn't exactly great either.

    It seems though we both agree in the broad spectrum and just disagree on the smaller details, which don't really matter at this point. The best way for CB to diversify it's portrayal of ethnicities would be to hire people of said ethnicities and I don't think they have the cash to do that right now considering how small they actually are. Still, I'm gonna mention Fiddler again because I think they really, really hit the nail on the head with her, which shows they are in fact learning and improving.
     
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  10. Vocenoctum

    Vocenoctum Well-Known Member

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    Er, yeah, "disingenuous" "malicious" "sarcasm" or deflection, that's discussing the point, rather than the motives? That's also all beside the point that the thread topic is "female models in infinity", which drifted into "diversity in PanO" masked as "diversity in Infinity", which is what I was referring to.

    Why? What are ALEPH's naming conventions? Other than the Assault Subsection, which was built as a propaganda show as much as anything (and thus, stars Brad Pitt as a greek hero, because raisins!), the names have no link to what the units look like. They are simply unit designations and are not linked to a body, but a role.
    No, because "A) ALEPH can make it's people look like whatever the hell it wants" with the switch of their LHOST and there is no ethnicity tied to most of the units. It ties back to what I've said before, there is just the one blonde in OSS, Shakti, and there is no reason to assume she is representative of the Yadu, let alone OSS overall.

    The pinnacle of ALEPH are blue people, not one Shakti blonde. Sure, the Homeridae are all white people with various hair colors (because I guess Amazons are red-heads?), but they are designed to be random hot heads because ALEPH was predictable, not the pinnacle of anything.

    As I said, my main disagreement point isn't that more diverse artwork is bad, though I prefer faceless masses, but that tying that discussion into in-universe requirements is pointless and wrong in many ways. To make the absurd comparison, saying PanO needs more diversity to reflect it's population could just as easily be handled with keeping all the Svalarheima Blondes, but having a mention in a book that the CA wiped out all the Indian/ Filipino populations of PanO, and that's certainly not what anyone wants, right?

    They could get more diverse artists, but I'm pretty sure they don't have many Brad Pitts or Svalar-Blondes in their ranks either, so it's not really a big deal I think. :)
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If ALEPH can make its people look like whatever the hell it wants to, why do they all look Euro?

    And yes, we have to assume Shakti is representative of OSS lhosts, because there's no fluff note that she isn't, and she's what we have to go off of.

    Yes, and it's disingenuous on your part to act like that 's what other people are asking for.
     
  12. SpectralOwl

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    For my part, while I respect people's wish to see themselves and their cultures represented in game, I also don't want my army being a frigging political statement. If anyone cares to, they can dig up the thread from Varuna's release about traditional Maori tattoo patterns. That one featured an active and well-respected warcor condemning someone pretty heavily for just not caring whether those designs went on a black or white-skinned mini. To this day I can't bring myself to use Croc Men due to the fact that there's a real chance someone could take major offense over my goddamned paint, ruining both our days. As far as I'm concerned, race is better left unseen and unspoken these days.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If race is inherently political, then you're making a political statement one way or the other.

    My point is not so much about the politics, but just that the way PanO is represented in Infinity objectively fails at representing a multiethnic society like the setting material describes it as, not that a political sin has been committed.
     
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  14. SpectralOwl

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    I understand this-you were perfectly clear about your intent. Unfortunately race tends to be The Big Issue at the moment, and making a big deal about it always seems to end in unhappy people on one side or another. I just want to keep my hobby out of the debate, and I have the misfortune to live in an area where big changes to PanO's design would definitely be a statement. As such my preference is to prioritise the fantastical elements, making the faction focus more on Neoterran or Varunese(?) instead of Malaysian or Italian or black or white.
     
  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Which is hilarious, because the fluff states that the Maori are nearly extinct due to a heroic last stand, and the Crocmen units are almost all non-ethnically Maori but carry the traditional tattoos as if they were, in order to pay respects to their noble sacrifice and keep their culture alive, despite their almost total annihilation.
     
  16. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    QFT

    Ariadna is majority white, and, outside of me bringing up the possibility of a black Galwegian as an example, nobody is sweating it. It makes sense within the setting because Ariadna was founded by US, Western European and Russian settlers. Same with Yu Jing; the ethnicities represented there are consistent with the fluff.

    But that's why PanO (and, to an extent, Aleph) is getting the attention. There's a disconnect between the fiction and the presentation. In calling for representation, it's reasonable to point out where representation could logically be shown and is, for some reason, not being shown. The dark-skinned PanO Engineer is great. If SWC fusiliers are re-done, I'd like to see more of that in the studio paint jobs.

    Going beyond PanO, I'd like to see more of an African presence in Corregidor. Africa is just as important to Corregidor's roots as South America. I'd like to see more of an Sub-Saharan African presence inside of Haqqislam, and maybe also some East Asian presence. I actually would like to see the odd Black model in Yu Jing. I know how some folks feel about the celebrity models, but a black Shaolin Monk modeled after Shonuff from The Last Dragon would tickle me. Probably not a reference many people would get, though. I'm old.
     
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  17. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is my issue with female models.
     
  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That is quite a biased selection of models, especially the hospitalers who tower many male knights.

    Female terracota and male terracota compare better between themselves, not great, but better.
     
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  19. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    In general I would like to keep the political discussion low to non existent, I understand race is a political issue to some countries, but I would appreciate it if effort is put to discuss variety in sculpting without making it a political issue.
     
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  20. Vocenoctum

    Vocenoctum Well-Known Member

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    Actually there has been plenty of discussion about how USAriadna should have more black/ hispanic folks in the artwork at various points. My Ariadna models are limited to a unit of Antipodes with their handler, which I still want to greenstuff together a little red hood for, but that's besides the point. Oh and a medic guy that I got to hit free shipping...

    Again though, it'd be easy enough (if, wrong to do, obviously) for an in-universe purge of the non-white PanO's to make the model range fully represent the setting. PanO's roots are not reflected in the current setting in many ways, but rather than accept that the current setting is reflective of the current place for PanO (with Australia being a pretty big part, along with Europe and the church), the discussion must travel back to the founding and wonder why models don't reflect that.
    I mean, hell, there shouldn't even be a JSA, because how can they have had any presence in the Yu Jing military due to populations of Chinese vs Japanese, let along a Uighur unit. But where would the world be without ninjas?

    Either way, O12 should be the most diverse force I think. By it's nature it should be composed of a good bit of everything, regardless of what country is where or with who, O12 is everyone.

    I remember Shonuff, but nowadays it might cross some line somewhere. I could swear I've seen some model somewhere resembling him though... They have added Uighurs to YJ, but not a lot of differentiation within the Haqq models (most of the society is near/mid east). There's plenty of islamic african population of course, but how they split between Haqq & Nomads is not directly spelled out, along with who remains on plain old Earth. It would be cool to get a couple African Haqq units, but if they have a Deadpool, it'd be nice to have a Shuri hacker with a squad modeled on the Dora Milaje. They make plenty of references to society looking back into history to revitalize "modern" society, so it'd be neat to have some more historical units also. I've got paints for it, so go wild!

    Not that my opinion matters much, but that's where I wish these threads would go, suggesting what would be cool to add to the game rather than trying to tally up the blondes.
     
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