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Combat Jump during deployment phase

Discussion in 'Rules' started by QueensGambit, Sep 29, 2020.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Netrods have Combat Jump, and a note at the bottom of the profile that says "this trooper must be deployed by Combat Jump during the deployment phase."

    Does this mean that any trooper with Combat Jump can choose to deploy by Combat Jump during the deployment phase?

    The rules for Combat Jump may permit it. They say that "the trooper is not required to deploy during the deployment phase" and can instead deploy when it spends its own order. They also explain how to deploy using combat jump. Arguably, this means that if they choose to deploy during the deployment phase, they can still deploy at any point on the game table by making a PH roll. That would be consistent with the Netrod's note which says that a Netrod is required to choose that method of deployment.
     
  2. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    This is the relevant part. Instead deploy using it’s own order. You cannot spend the order during deployment. You have no orders yet.

    netrods have the text to make them an exception.
     
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  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    That doesn't really answer the question. There's no doubt that the unit can choose to deploy during the deployment phase, or to wait and deploy later using its own order. Every unit that deploys during the deployment phase does so without spending an order.

    The bullet points of Combat Jump appear to be independent. So we have one that says "you can choose not to deploy during deployment," another that says "if not deployed, they may enter the table using their own order," a third that says "the player may deploy the Trooper on any surface of the gaming table," and then further bullets explaining that a PH roll is required and the consequences if it's failed.

    So the question is, if the Trooper chooses to deploy during deployment - which we know they can do - must they deploy in their DZ, or can they employ the bullet points that say "you can deploy anywhere on the game table with a PH roll"?
     
  4. JPGebby

    JPGebby New Member

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    ► This Trooper is not required to deploy during the Deployment Phase, remaining
    off-table until their player decides to deploy them during their Active Turn.
    ► While off-table, the Trooper will not add their Order to the Order Pool during
    the Tactical Phase. However, they may enter the table using their own Order
    to use this Special Skill, when the player chooses.

    The off-table text is the focus here. If you choose not to have them on the table during deployment phase, they then have to use an order while off-table to jump in. They can't do that during deployment since they won't have their order yet to use for it. Netrod is the only exception to this.
     
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  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I don't see that anywhere in the bullets you quoted. Are you referring to something specific?
     
  6. JPGebby

    JPGebby New Member

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    It's essentially saying that with combat jumping you can do one of two things during deployment: deploy the model and not deploy it. If you deploy it, you put it on the board as normal. If you don't deploy it, the model is "remaining off-table until their player decides to deploy them during active turn." Being off-table is what allows it to jump in later, but you can't jump in without it being your active turn and you need to use their given order to do so.
     
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  7. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    To be as plain as possible about it, the answer is "No, it doesn't."

    The part that you're missing is that nowhere in the Combat Jump rules is permission given to deploy using Combat Jump during the deployment phase.

    Netrods and Imetrons do it because the rules say they have to do so. There's no separate statement of permission and requirement, the same statement is both.
     
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  8. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    The way I see it there is nothing preventing you from deploying AD troops normally, as in on your deployment zone, during deployment.
    However to use AD you need to be off the table and able to use an order, which you cannot do during deployment
     
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    So, lots of people are of the opinion that you can't do it, and to be clear, I think that's probably correct. But I still haven't seen any rules citation to answer the question one way or the other. In N3 you couldn't, obviously, but we have new wording in N4 which has some ambiguity. So far we don't have an answer.

    @ijw has been pretty active recently so hopefully he'll give a definitive answer tomorrow.
     
  10. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    There is no ambiguity, all deployment happens at the start of the game. Following normal deployment rules, altered by additional skills.

    no where does combat jump say it can be used during deployment, so you cannot use it. Look at infiltration for example, it specifically calls out during deployment phase.
     
  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    There we go - that works for me. Infiltration, Impersonation, and Strategic Deployment all explicitly state that they apply "during the Deployment phase." Combat Jump doesn't have that wording.

    Also - just thought of this now - Combat Jump is an Entire Order skill. Hence, the bullet points implicitly refer to what happens when you declare that skill, which doesn't happen during the deployment phase.

    Solved!
     
  12. WarHound

    WarHound Well-Known Member

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    Show me in the rules where it says that a unit MAY use combat jump in the deployment phase?
     
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  13. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    old thread but I had to look it up as my opponent, a new N4 player, was told (from another new player?) that netrod could now deploy normally. And on the spot I chose to believe him as the netrod in TTS doesn't have any special rule other than what is printed on its profile.
    Netrod doesn't really have a rule, it is more of a note in the general area of the unit profile. If it was a rule it would be in N4 wiki.

    And that is my point : Combat Jump doesn't allow to use it during deployment phase, therefore the Netrod should have a special skill or a skill modifier that allows them to use it during deployment phase. Otherwise, if we apply the current netrod logic to Van Zant, we should have given him just Parachutist and then add a note in Army saying that he can parachute in the enemy deployment zone. Did we do that ? No. We instead invented a keyword "(Dep. Zone)" that we added to his Parachutist skill. That is how to make proper rules. Something like "Combat Jump (PH=12, Dep. Phase)" and have the rule for Dep. Phase says it makes it Obligatory to use this skill, and to use it during the deployment phase without spending any Order; would have been fantastic.

    In the end it does not matter much as he can CJ in the DZ and if he fails, he simply deploy on the edge. Which would not have change anything at all in the game I played.
     
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