nope, that’s not it Mr. Bonehead. I do not propose a thing. I’m merely pointing out some weaknesses of the game - useless models and heavyhanded power compensation via bonuses. I’ll leave designing the game to the designers. I’m not making a secret of this is my preference either, and I do think the game would be much better without fireteams and this is entirely my own subjective opinion - and that of anyone who prefer tactical skirmish games over min-max system thinking. - try out a game like Malifaux, and you’ll find that Infinity plays quite dated in comparison. Every model has a function to perform and an active duty to play, regardless of points cost. Whereas ‘Infinity is rarely played with much more than 4 active units.
...if that's your playstyle, and you don't enjoy it, you might want to try a different faction or just build different lists in your current faction. I don't think it's at all accurate as a description of Infinity overall.
Well that’s a load of crock. The only lists I think of that have that few active models are like Vanilla Aleph Achilles builds, or some Avatar lists. Most models aren’t active SHOOTERS, but they contribute to the game in a lot of other ways. Smoke, Hacking, Parachutist, Camo infiltrators… The only models that I would consider to be inactive pieces are things like stock-standard line troops, AI beacons, and War Cors. Just looking at my last game with Spiral Corps, I had a Draal, 2 Kriigel, a Taagma Sniper, a Greif, an Igao, and Jaan Staar. Even the diplomat ran up to try to use Pheroware and push a button, and the Chaksa FTO’s got some Flamethrower action in once the Sniper died. The only models that were “inactive” that game were the Tri-Core Taagma and the Kaeltar, but had the Draal gone down they had templates, Flash Pulse, and CoC to push up and push buttons. If 11/15 models are sitting useless in your games you may need to rethink how you’re building lists.
I think an issue that a lot of people are having with your opinions is that Vanilla ALREADY overshadows Sectorials for a lot of factions. Yu Jing, Nomads, Aleph, Combined Army, and O-12 are incredibly strong in Vanilla. Vanilla Ariadna and Haqq can easily stand up to most sectorials, and Vanilla PanO, while less great, is still perfectly viable. Removing fireteams won't make the game more balanced or more fun; it will simply cause sectorials to... disappear. The entire POINT of a sectorial is that you have heavily restricted options, but in exchange you get fireteam bonuses. Factions like Tohaa, which is basically a weird Vanilla-Sectorial hybrid, or the entire NA2 line will disappear overnight. Could you imagine trying to run something like Druze without fireteams? Or Dahshat? And you say this would be "not a big loss?" Most people play sectorials because they like the theme, not for fireteam boosts, and without the boosts to compensate you for running a themed army, that all goes away. The other issue people have with your opinions is that they are just flat-out wrong. Every model in Infinity DOES count. The fact that you continue to push your narrative of the opposite speaks to either an incredibly isolated meta (different from the game the rest of us experience) or just plain lack of experience playing the game. And, from your post history, oh look. You play Vanilla Aleph. How convenient. And most of your posts are about your Marut or Achilles doing something. Interesting. Have you considered trying out some different armies? It sounds like it isn't Infinity that upsets you, rather it's the playstyle that is very often what Vanilla Aleph goes for: taking Achilles, Atalanta, and a few other choice models and then shoving AI Beacons, Myrmidons, and Flash bots in to fill orders. TAK is better, as it spams Camo like crazy, but it tends to only take 1 Core of a Vet Kazak + chaff. Maybe try something like Corregidor, or (incoming bias) Tohaa/Spiral Corps. Both tend to get a lot of milleage out of every unit they take, and both tend to have very diverse, filled-out fireteams with a bunch of different models with different purposes. It might also give you more of a well-rounded view of factions that simply DON'T work without fireteams. Also, @Hecaton , would it kill you to be a bit nicer man? I get that the dude's got his wires crossed, but this thread needs to chill a bit...
For what it's worth, around here vanilla winning tournaments is not expected, unless the correct person plays Combined (which is almost indistinguishable from when he's playing Shas...). Comparing vanilla factions to their bad sectorials is pointless. A vanilla faction doesn't become S-tier by being better than its C-tier sectorials. Equally, sectorials don't get S-tier by having core fireteam bonuses. (They become S tier by being able to employ both strong vanilla and strong sectorial tactics)
All true, but not every faction need to be S-tier (and, IMO, none should be). And, as always, we are all colored by our local metas. But here are the results from VaulSC’s latest TTS tournament: Vanilla Aleph, Nomads, Haqqislam, Ariadna, Combined Army, and Yu Jing in the top 32. And even sectorials considered to be weak, like Druze and Starmada, are there. Heck, Steel Phalanx took first! Now, yes, this is just one tournament, but the idea that “Vanilla factions can’t compete with Sectorials” is bogus nonsense.
Aye, in my rosy fluffy ideal world there are no S-tier factions, either. Unfortunately, I do think we have some S-tier factions, but not S-tier as in that they'll let someone markedly worse beat someone better than them. The game itself is a bit... complex... for that. It's more that we've got a bunch of factions with a much more complete set of skills and power moves. Or the other way around. Which actually isn't saying anything about whether the fireteam bonuses are a good idea or fun to play with or (more importantly) against, mind you.
I am still contemplating on the reasons the discussion devolved to personal attacks? I would suggest it stops. All of you know, and are capable on making your points without resorting to this.
I think it is past the time I already said personal attacks need to stop. Thread reopened after cleaning up. I would suggest posters to calm down, I intentionally did not remove or edit the start of the altercation, but if the name calling that started exhibiting there continues penalties will be distributed.
