1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ariadnan Line Troop Pricing

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Delta57Dash, Jul 15, 2021.

  1. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    1,246
    So I was going around looking at Line Troops, trying to rank them because I was bored at work when I noticed something really weird going on with the price of Line Troops in Ariadna, specifically the "Core" ones like Line Kazaks or Volunteers.

    Take a look at a Line Kazak compared to a Corregidor Alguacile. Line Kazaks have PH 11 vs. the Alguacile's PH 10, Alguaciles have a Cube while Kazaks don't, but otherwise their profiles are the exact same.

    Line Kazak w/ Missile Launcher costs 17 points. Alguacile Missile Launcher costs *15*.

    2 extra points for +1 PH? That seems... oddly expensive.

    Volunteers have the same story: 19 points for the HMG vs. 18 points for an Alguacile HMG, even though Volunteers have -1 BS, +1 PH, and -1 WIP. Even with the two terrain skills that shouldn't really equate to an INCREASE in price.

    Grunt HMG? TWENTY-ONE. Sure they've got 3 ARM, which is great, but considering they're hamstrung by MOV 4-2 is that really worth an extra 3 points? And they're still -1 WIP +1PH.

    Rokots? Same story. +1 PH, -1 BS and WIP compared to a Ghulam, but the Rifle+LSG profiles are the same cost.

    I think the grunts are at least partially justified by their excellent durability, but I can't figure out what the rest are paying so many points for. It just seems to me like CB increased the price of Ariadnan Line Troops to avoid having them be too cheap.

    Does anyone else find this funky, or am I missing something?
     
    Kreslack likes this.
  2. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    369
    Its "sort of" niche but cubeless troops are immune to sepsitor. The most likely reason why the price discrepancy is obvious on line troops is because their kit is so simple to calculate. So consider cubes 1 point discount for being susceptible to sepsitor. Yes you can make argument for using a command token for a reroll on a doctor roll, but command tokens are very very finite while for example if a JSA player didnt bring any Remote Presence or Keisotsu (often enough), an Avatar could sepsitorize an entire JSA force while the whole of Ariadna is immune.
     
  3. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    1,246
    Uhm... Wuji?

    Keisotsu don't have Cubes either.

    And I highly doubt that "being immune to a short-ranged weapon that only a handful of models in a single faction have" is worth an entire point. Especially when it comes with the "can't use Command tokens to reroll doctor checks" downside.

    EDIT: For what it's worth; Keisotsu Missile Launcher is 14 points, so this can't possibly be it.
     
    cazboab likes this.
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    The prices for SWC weapons work out OK if you factor in rifles costing 3 points less than a combi, an HMG costs 8 points more than a combi, which is 11 points more than a rifle, so 19 points for a Metro HMG checks out, an ML is 5 points more than a combi, so 8 more than a rifle, so a Line Kazak ML is correct at 17 points.

    This indicates that the line troopers themselves are probably not discounted as much as they should be. The Alguacile is a great baseline (in N1 everything was priced compared to the Red Sheriffs) and suggests that the Line Kazak is indeed paying 2 points for +1 PH, however it could also be that in N4 profiles under 10 points don't get full discounts for things like combi>rifle.
     
  5. Cthulhu Fhtagn!

    Cthulhu Fhtagn! Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    30
    I don't think it's that easy to compare point costs over various factions... There may ve faction spezific modi we don't know about but i think one, two points differences are okay and not to big of a deal breaker.

    The Grunts as "special" case (MI with Arm3) seems ok. ARM was always on the expensive site and got the crit-buff with N4 and the 4-2 is a okay trade off.
     
  6. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    369
    You seem to be under the impression I said Keisotsu have cubes. Read what I said again.

    As for the price of a Keisotsu ML. Ballistic Skill is likely the most valuable attribute in the game and the game has shown to increase the cost of attribute semi-exponentially as they go up. I'm not saying that the Spec Ops calculator for attribute increase is accurate but it's close enough.

    Plus, CB makes internal mods as they see fit.
     
  7. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    209
    PH is now more important than ever, but yes our line troops aren't very good. Mediocre at best.

    Ghulams are probably the best line infantry in the game at the moment. Light shotgun, the weapon of the gods.
     
  8. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    1,246
    You are correct; I misread that bit you said about the Keisotsus. They are not the only troops that lack Cubes in JSA, however.

    I agree that BS is the most valuable attribute, but Keisotsus vs. Line Kazaks are -1 BS/PH/WIP, +1 CC, +Courage, -3 points.

    Compare Keisotsu ML to an Alguacile and you have a model that is -1 BS, -1 WIP, +1 CC, +Courage for -1 point.

    So by that comparison, the Line Kazak is still paying 2 points for a simple +1 PH.

    The only explanation that makes sense to me is that CB deliberately up-costed Ariadnan Line Troops. As @colbrook stated, this was probably to avoid having the Basic Rifle profiles be too cheap, but in that case why are the special weapons profiles so expensive? If they wanted to increase the cost of the basic rifle dudes, why increase everything else?
     
    #8 Delta57Dash, Jul 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    Because CB rarely changes the value of weapons between troop types, the Line Kazak pays the same for his ML as a Fusilier, Swiss Guard, Bolt, Mobile Brigada, or any other ML carrying trooper, that's how their points system works. You could argue that the cost should scale with BS, W, ARM, etc but you risk ending up with a fractal behemoth of a points system that is much more complex and harder to interact with, and isn't necessarily any more balanced, just with different break points.
     
  10. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    1,246
    Oh I get that, but if their intent was to specifically make the low-cost profiles cheaper, then they should have only messed with those profiles instead of all of them.

    It's like how the Rasail in Tohaa gets an ABSURD discount on his Viral Combi, paying 1 point (2 on the LT) and losing mines to upgrade from a Regular Combi, while normally that's a 6 point upgrade.

    They didn't go and make the non-Viral profiles cheaper to match they just... made the Viral profile cheaper. And that's exactly what they SHOULD have done for these Line Troops, if their intent was to limit how cheap the basic guys are. But they didn't, and now Ariadna has weirdly expensive troops.

    I'm not saying they should make different weapons on different profiles more or less expensive based off of stats (i.e. having a BS 14 HMG be more expensive than a BS11 HMG), but seeing as how they already have examples of specifically buffing/discounting certain profiles without touching the others, the fact that they DIDN'T implement such a strategy here is annoying.
     
  11. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    369
    Faction tax?
     
  12. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    209
    In my opinion, BS isn’t the most important stat for line trooper or any other trooper for that matter. Infinity is a gear game.

    Sadly, Ariadna is poorly equipped compared to our rivals. Take basic Ghulam: It has LSG+rifle, which means that single wound models can’t really approach it. Ghulam can also be upgraded with Number2 and Panzerfaus for mere 2pts. Ghulams also have excellent hacker, doctor, nco+smoke and repeater profiles.
     
    Modock likes this.
  13. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    92
    On a similar note of confusion, what's going on with pricing for Metros vs Volunteers?
    Take the standard Rifle load-out for both units; same stats, weapons & points costs. Except that the former get Terrain (Total), whilst the latter are limited to Terrain for Jungle & Mountain only.
    Surely being unaffected by all terrain types is better than being unaffected by just two types? But points costs say these are the same?!?
     
  14. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    It is better, but the difference is worth less than a point, so they're the same price due to rounding.
     
    cazboab and Delta57Dash like this.
  15. Angry Clown

    Angry Clown Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    242
    so somehow Corvus Belli thinks alguacil missile has to be cheaper than kazak missile which i almost never use. And stragely i wouldnt use him if even he was an alguacil cost unit.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Well, Nomads are on a whole different level with their pricing.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    I find that strange when looking at the Nyoka HRL... 19pts + 1 SWC... (yeah, BS 12, and Core/Haris... but +1 DAM, Climbing Plus, 0g, inmunity Shock, Courage...).

    I'd bet there is a "this sectorial lacks X... let's give it an option with points discount", which was not there before... and I'd bet the base troop costs has not been reviewed since each profile's creation, aside from the HI/2W discount to all factions...
     
  18. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    HRLs have always been absurdly but consistently cheap, they're actually a point cheaper than a combi rifle. A Line Kazak with HRL would be 11 points compared to the Nyoka's 19.
     
    #18 colbrook, Jul 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
    xagroth and Delta57Dash like this.
  19. Cthulhu Fhtagn!

    Cthulhu Fhtagn! Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    30
    Ah that's the reason why the Marauder HRL is so dirt cheap... 23/1,5 für MSV1, HRL and Assault Pistol always felt like a error.
     
  20. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    1,083
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    As frustrating as it is for balance, and as boring as it is for the conversation, unfortunately that's pretty much the answer to all of the "why is x cheaper/more expensive than y" questions...

    There's enough skills and equipment worth "0.5" points that it's very likely that a profile that would be 9.5 could be rounded up while one at 10.5 gets rounded down, and depending on the skills and equipment in question, people's perspective on what they should cost might make it seem like a 9 point unit should be 11 because of a similar profile, while two 10 point units look like one is getting shot changed...
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation