Yeah, Brawler's right. You have a right to be offended, but you don't have a right to compel the rest of us to be offended with you. I don't think you should be offended in the first place, for whatever that's worth... For example, if CB released a Chetnik unit for Tunguska, my reaction would be less than positive (my family being Croatian and all). But I wouldn't for one moment expect everyone to get all up in arms with me. I'd probably get over it, reasoning that CB is using the term without meaning to endorse Serbian nationalism, much less the murder of Croats, Bosnians, Jews, Albanians, et al. Because that's how CB rolls. Look, CB doesn't include jihadists in the game because its staff are glossing over 9/11, or because they think that ISIS is just misunderstood. The fact that the assassins are present doesn't mean that CB endorses the targeted murder of political leaders. CB doesn't include holy orders of knights because it's trying to say that the sack of Jerusalem in 1099 was really cool. I don't believe that for a minute. CB takes historical figures/units/groups and repurposes them to give flavor to its setting. And all of that is to say nothing of the Imperial Service. There's an example of a horrible thing in-game that is based on a horrible thing out-of-game. And yet people play them. Lots of people. And they get no reaction like this Kempeitai business. In any case, if you have a problem with all of that, maybe this ain't the game for you? If you stay, though, don't pretend that the Kempeitai are the only unit/faction in this setting that has historical blood on its hands, or that its historical precedent is uniquely bad. It just isn't true. As for the comparisons with the Nazis that have reappeared throughout the course of this discussion...Nazis are largely off limits in the West because we made them that way. We didn't treat the Japanese the same as we did as the Germans in the wake of WWII (even though we really should have)--and they certainly haven't been interested in issuing many mea culpas of their own--so it's no surprise at all that Japanese war crimes are not as well known, nor as widely abhorred, as those of the Nazis. I could give a laundry list of examples of this double standard, but I don't think it's really necessary. Anyway, that's why the comparison doesn't hold up. Yes, the Japanese were bad, but our society did not decide to cast them into the outer darkness as we did with the Nazis. Should we have? Who cares, we didn't, so you should not expect them to be treated similarly. One final thought, if you want to lecture someone about historical ills, maybe the next time you see a douchebag wearing a Che shirt or a hammer & sickle patch you'll be so good to educate them about the charnel pit that was 20th Century Communism. Then you can hear them say, "that's only because really real Communism hasn't been tried yet, we'd do it differently," and then you can have a hearty laugh at the staggering levels of stupidity and self-deception we humans are capable of.
This is actual fluff for the kempeita, btw. Not glorified. "At a glance, one might think the role of the Kempeitai, its very raison d'etre, must have been drastically altered since the Uprising. They were, after all, a clandestine organization created to infiltrate the Yu Jing military and take revenge against its abuse of Japanese troops. Their goals ostensibly achieved, they have now become an active element in the defense of their nation. The Kempeitai has adopted the trappings and responsibilities of a military police even as their true authority reaches far beyond them, up to and including counter-intelligence and extrajudicial operations. Their job is to root out and suppress all activities considered anti-Japanese, a term interpreted so broadly it covers not only spies, collaborationists and foreign agents, but anyone suspect of furthering a pro-Yu Jing agenda or harboring sentiments contrary to national autonomy and the Emperor. The Kempeitai are in charge of counter-guerrilla and retaliation operations, but they are not above deploying alongside the rank and file on ongoing military engagements, which they can assume control of if need be. The unit has accumulated a fearsome measure of power, in part due to the fact that any Kempeitai agent has the prerogative to arrest military officers up to three ranks above himself on suspicion of disloyalty. Enhanced interrogations and summary executions are common practice for them. As the responsibilities of the Kempeitai have expanded, so has their reputation worsened, but the purpose of the unit hasn’t budged since its inception under the yoke of the State Empire: to pursue the enemies of Japan and eliminate them with ferocious implacability."
Okay, reading this thread has made me think of the following: Have you guys noticed that the Ikari Company, that Bostria described as 'Worse than Bad' on his video, is full of JSA models? And as the post above from @chaos11 says, the fluff for the Kempeitai isn't exactly glorifying. So, here's an alternate interpretation: What if the JSA isn't the Good Guys and the Yu Jing isn't the Bad Guys? What if this is supposed to be treated like an actual war, with honorable and good people on both sides as well as really horrible people too? Maybe the symbol was chosen exactly because it would help people understand that JSA is not a band of nice rebels just fighting the power. These guys are ruthless, they are violent, and yeah, they probably commit as many war crimes as the Yu Jing do. If that is the case, which I think it is, the names and visual shortcuts are actually a good thing. They make the point fast and without having to write a gigantic story about it. You just look at them and go "Yeah, maybe these japanese folks aren't 100% nice. Am I okay with that?" or maybe you go "Sure, these Japanese folks aren't 100% nice, but *MY* Japanese dudes are the ones who aren't horrible people" I actually like the way it is presented, gives players more options to create their own lore for their miniatures. And no, I don't think it's offensive as it is done. It would be if the Kempeitai were super heroes, but it is clear they aren't.
Well I can't believe that this is my first thread to come up to since I signed up for this new forum, but still think it's a worthy topic to write my thoughts about . Like DeadlyOcean up there, I'm also a Korean player myself, and I know plenty enough what terrible things Imperial Japan did to my country and our neighbors . Still, as a table top gamer I have no offense or hard feelings about the naming or the fluff of the current JSA because far as I know there are no true good guys in this game universe, only bad guys with propaganda. In fact, depending on the uprising info's, I think CB actually did some find job on pulling out the insane and ugly aspects of the Japanese army. And the naming of the units like 'Kempeitai ' fits that grim and irrational status that the Japaneses are going through fluff-wise. However, I do have some personal concerns CB like using the 'rising sun' symbol as a Army symbol and having it printed on a Dice. This is merely because that symbols these symbols might have on average people who does not play this game or gamer who are not fluff-wise (especially in east Asia where people are sensitive about this). Just think about one of your Jew friend who doesn't play infinity saw you use a Hakenkreuz dice and looks at you with disgust. You probably have a lot of talking to do to that friend. It's same here in Korea except that your friend is a fellow Korean and its a rising sun dice. I know that CB can't conciser all these sensitive things when they are making products, but still I wish in the future they at least consider using nonsensitive symbols in boxes or dices. Just for the sake of players living in a country where those symbols are a sensitive issue so they don't face unnecessary misunderstandings. To wrap up, personally Fluff or naming : no offense on JSA, CB's doing fine Symbols on boxes and dices: Wish we can play JSA without facing awkward situation
Oh my, where to even start? So we're fine with whatever the Roman Empire did because the history books like the guys, Ancient Greece was cool because they had Spartans, the worldwide warmongering of the USA is fine because they also gave us Google, but somehow naming a single Troop in the Japanese Sectorial Kempetai validates a "how dare you CB" debate years after it's release. I don't care in particular that Carthago got erased from the face of the earth with it's people massacred or worse. It's just an anecdote in history by now. What I don't understand is how whatever happened in the last couple centuries requires a different scale. What is next? Someone ranting and raving how calling an Aristea character Maximus glorifies slavery? Yeah fuck this, it's like people come here to get offended after learning about "muh privilige" on Reddit and WGC. Where is my popcorn I'm gonna enjoy where this goes.
And since we're on the topic of other things we're fine with... Infinity armies use flamethrowers, biological agents, mines, shrapnel guns. They employ brainwashed political prisoners with suicide charges, penal squads, assassins, religious fanatics, pirates, corrupt mercenaries who gloat about their war crimes. CA blows up planets to make a point. Morats run concentration camps and execute PoWs. Tohaa brainwash other species and conscript them into their armies. We commit breaches in multiple real-world and in-game conventions in every Infinity match. And yet somehow we're more ok with burning enemy soldiers alive, or killing them with a Viral Mine, than with naming one of the units after real bastards?
I've spent pretty significant amounts of time in Japan. I don't think any Japanese would take issue with just using Kempeitai. They existed from basically the Meiji restoration until after WWII, and it's only in WWII that they gained a reputation as extremists. Most would probably have more mixed feelings about the use of the rising sun flag, but in general there's only one or two versions that really gives the "imperial Japan" image. So altogether I don't think it's much different than playing a WWII game and fielding a Japanese army using those units. As long as we recognize that there aren't "good guys" in Infinity, we'll be fine. If anything, it looks like the Kempeitai's new fluff entry is intended to make it seem like they went from oppressed to oppressor as soon as they gained any freedom.
To be fair, the remind me of the typical Soviet Commissar/NKVD than their real life counter-part at times (at least at the moment). And even then, those guys were far from the definition of 'Nice' and still had a bunch of war crimes tied to them.
To me they actually sound more similar to the real life Kempeitai. Military gendarmerie with a jurisdiction and mission description far surpassing military matters into secret police territory. It nicely underscores how JSA aren't the crystal clear good guys here.
Still true. Then again, that is because I see a lot of similarities between the Kempeitai and NKVD. Though I agree with you on JSA kind of having a dark side to them, and do not want to argue 'apples to apples' essentially.
I’m not sure why I posted in this thread to begin with, but I have to admit, reading these calm and rational responses really warms my heart. I don’t have to agree with everyone, but it’s really nice to see the conversation staying civil. And @Mahtamori , you are correct, even though I’m tempted to use a joke from family guy here I won’t. Hopefully my intention was clear either way.
I think Bostria even said somewhere in one of the videos that the Kempeitai act like political comissars of the JSA. From my (limited) knowledge that isn't too far removed from their historical namesake.
I`ll be short, I don`t see Kempeitai unit name offensive. They have pretty dark fluff so apparently it fits the name. Other thing that CB using historical unit names inspire players to dig what lies behind these names in Earth hisory, both good and bad. I found this wonderful and a lot better then Obliterating Devastators #452 (No offence to GW).
I had no idea who the Kempeitai were before this discussion came up on the other thread, and honestly I'm pretty happy. It's always fun to learn the history you wouldn't have otherwise known through something you enjoy like Infinity
I dunno how I feel about this. The Kempetei are basically the Gestapo of the IJA. Would I be happy if an Infinity used the name "Gestapo" for a unit? Probably not, but then at the same time, am I bothered that they use the name "Securitate" when the Romanian Securitate were pulling fingernails out of dissidents during my (admittedly very early lifetime) and yet are right there in Tunguska? Am I bothered about them using Bashi Bazouk when the real like Bashis raped and pillaged their way through the Balkans/Eastern Europe/North Africa/etc a bit over a hundred years ago? I feel like... they are not being portrayed as being heroic. And that's good. Because the name "Kempetei" shouldn't be associated with heroic individuals to my mind; Japanese nationalism is a thing, people who are alive today did suffer tremendously at the hands of the IJA Military Police, as did their families and friends. So... yeah. Tricky. Like, we all get that killing people is bad. Is there a specific context that makes the Kempetei worse, more offensive, than other troops in the game? There's an argument for it, certainly, and I don't want to dismiss that argument out of hand because it's a fair argument, we do live in the world where that stuff happened and no man is an island, as they say.
I also did not know the historical context until it was brought up recently, despite having played Infinity for many years. Having looked it up now, I can completely understand why some people could be very put off by it. It's not something that ever had a negative effect on my country, but if I try to think of equivalent examples there are definitely some I would be uncomfortable having included in a fictional setting.
CB is in the business of selling miniatures, and things which distract from that are bad for business. Use of the Kempetai name is a distraction for a sufficient number of people, seemingly, so much so that it is bad for business. It does not matter if the name does not cause you -- yes, you -- to take offense. It suffices that it can cause a fair number of people to take offense. Miniatures games need a stable player base to remain playable. Without enough players, the game dies. Retention and Recruitment, right? Use of terms like kempetai in a non-historical context make this harder to do. The rising sun symbol on the dice is worse, IMHO. I can certainly understand how Eastern Asians might react. Like Western Europeans to the sight of the swastika. I see, in some of the Infinity storylines, the danger of a little bit of knowledge, and a lack of time or inclination to dig deeper. How much do Europeans learn of Japanese conduct in Eastern Asia in the inter-war period? I know that in my history courses in school, we got an earful about Japanese conduct in China, and during the war. CB renamed the execrable Tech-bee to avoid trouble, and I think they ditched plans for use of Confederate battleflag symbology in USAriadna too, although hints of that survive, or did for a bit, if you look. They might do themselves a favor, and make it easier for players to play the game in public places like the FLGS, by ditching the Kempetai name. Those dice. Words fail. Stick to the Kawaii, J-Pop Ninja and Samurai cultural stuff that we see in Anime and Manga. That's what the Weeaboos want anyways. (I guess.) Leave the truly vile stuff for historicals.
