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Change crits to be on a roll of 1

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Am Lash, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    If you have a table of chances for succeeding in the old rules and want to convert it to the new rules:
    Write a 1 instead of the Skill Value that is a crit in the old system.
    Add 1 to every number that would usually be a hit in the old system.
    Your table is ready for the new system.
     
  2. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Please, remind me why are we discussing this.

    Just to skip an addition before rolling dice? REALLY???
     
  3. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    I think 5% per die of not having to calculate is a huge gain.
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    One would think I just made a very simple example that would be easy to grasp.

    If you don't get it that's fine, but did you actually try or no?

    You also flat out use a useless example to refute my point.
    I specifically mentioned it only has an effect if one side has a higher target value than the other.
    BS3 vs BS3 can't produce the shift.
    Gotta correct that though, it's below or equal, not just below.

    Run your example BS2 vs BS3, you'll be surprised.

    Most people I know calculate target value before rolling dice.
    Avoids post roll discussions about close calls on Rangebands etc.
     
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  5. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    So you'd rather change a rule that works without exception to go with a different version that have a horrid output (you roll LOW to win), create an exception (the you roll HIGH if you are over 20) to get the same result with a PROBABLE (i don't wanna really go down this rabbithole) change to odds?

    If you REALLY get so many 1s on your roll, go check your dice, please.

    And if you don't calculate your target values before rolling the dice anyway, maybe the problem is there.
     
  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Is my math wrong? @QueensGambit @Teslarod

    1 = success
    0 = tie
    -1 = failure

    Darker colour is uncancelled crits

    From what I can see, it's literally the same outcome. Please point out if I made a mistake.

    upload_2021-6-18_9-54-4.png
     
    #26 Diphoration, Jun 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
    Ugin, Robock and Am Lash like this.
  7. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    You are free not to discuss if you are not interested in the topic.
     
  8. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    Bs 2 vs BS 3

    Old System

    1vs1=tie
    1vs2=B hit
    1vs3=B crit
    2vs1=A crit
    2vs2=A crit
    2vs3=tie
    3vs1=B hit
    3vs2=B hit
    3vs3=B crit

    2 ties
    3 B hit
    2 A crit
    2 B crit

    New System
    1vs1=tie
    1vs2=A crit
    1vs3=A crit
    2vs1=B crit
    2vs2=tie
    2vs3=B hit
    3vs1=B crit
    3vs2=B hit
    3vs3=B hit

    2 tie
    3 B hit
    2 A crit
    2 B crit

    as you can see, the odds are the same in the example you suggested. Will you now examine your math again please?
     
  9. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    Vs a rolled 5, you have 1 more win outcome and one 1 less lost outcome.
    Vs a rolled 6, same deal.
    Vs a rolled 7, same deal.
    Vs a rolled 8, same deal.
    Vs a rolled 9, same deal.

    Vs a rolled 10,
    Current crits: everything but a 10 loses, 10 ties.
    Crits on 1s : 1 wins, 2-9 loses, 10 ties, 11+ loses.
    you have 1 more win outcome and 1 less lose outcome.

    Vs a rolled 1,
    Current crits: 1 ties, 2-10 wins, 11+ loses
    everything but a 1 loses, 1 ties.
    you have 9 less win outcomes, and 9 more loss outcome.

    Therefore, yes on a single rolled result, you likely have 1 more win. But everything being equal, when that vs a 1 hits, you lose all the gains you got. Let's say you FtF 20 time, and it is so fair that every die result happen, vs1, vs2, vs3, etc. in total the added chance to win and and the added chances to lose cancel off.
     
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  10. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    @dipharation: looks good to me.
     
  11. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
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    I am interested in the topic, and also want to discuss about the actual 'gain' of the suggestion.

    Does 'fixing the Crit value into 1' really free up the brain power, from calculating the Success value? We have to calculate the Success value anyhow. The only change is that the Crit value is substituted from the Success Value to 1. Then IMO, I suppose the decrease of the usage of my brain power would be imperceptible.
    Please notify me if I'm missing something, I'm having a hard time understanding where the huge gain is taking place.
     
    #31 Ugin, Jun 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    First, I hate those dice because I can't see any of the numbers. Second, I like the Blackjack feel of the moving crit number.
     
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  13. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    Many BS aren't something everyone knows by heart of every model. Most people calculate things general odds like mimetism/msv, cover and range as a "I have advantage here" but without looking at the number of the BS. Then they roll and see what they roll. A crit on a 1 is easily recognisable, without having to engange heaviliy into mathematics or having to check the models stats.
     
  14. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I'm in the same boat, I see absolutely no benefit since you need to calculate the target number before rolling anyway.

    You're forced to check your model stats anyway before you roll, you need to figure out your target number anyway.

    Claiming this is "engaging heavily into mathematics" is completely absurd lol.
     
  15. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    I recognise that the arguments here are mostly emotional value vs practical value - both being valid though.
    I'm okay with reading them, but it seems that others dont.
     
  16. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    Why do you need to check it before rolling, you can check it after as well.
     
  17. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    I think it's all about rolling before calculating anything. If one person gets 1 and the other doesn't then technically you don't need to calculate anything since you know crit won and it's all that matters.
    The thing is, if I'm on active i always calculate my odds before even declaring BS attack to make sure it's a risk I want to take. And I bet most people do so also.
     
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  18. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I mean you need to check regardless. The actual timing is moot.

    The game flows much better and the game states stay much cleaner if you calculate before.

    @Teslarod Pointed out a very valid example that I've seen many times before. If there are any dispute on cover, it's much better to settle what the actual target number is before the roll. It'll remove any bias torward the actual result.
     
  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Whooops, I made a big mistake here.

    It's why it made FAT2 so OP, because the FAT2 trooper shifted his secondary crit value to his lowest success number (leaving T-1 in his potential pool to win FTF) WITHOUT the other trooper being subject to the same.

    Since we're changing both troopers to crit on 1s both sides shift exactly the same and it doesn't matter.

    Too hot for critical thinking today :D
     
  20. Am Lash

    Am Lash New Member

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    No problem at all, I rather have it contested than uncontested, to see if my suggestion holds. Thank you!

    @Calculation: Maybe as the active player, but the reactive player doesn't know who you will attack and has to look up after you declared.
     
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