I brought this up in passing in the large army balance thread, but I'd like to get thoughts from other Haqqislam players, as doctors are such an integral part of our faction design. It also feels that between the crit changes and the proliferation of shock weapons and BS Attack(Shock), I often find that my troopers often go straight to dead. It came up in a recent after action discussion with my opponent that tactical window also degrades the value of doctor/paramedic units. As each player nominally has at most 15 orders (barring the tactical awareness and +1 LT order shenanigans I mentioned in a previous post), if you spend more than a single order to revive a downed trooper you've lost tempo because you don't get their order back until next turn and you could have used those orders to kill an enemy trooper and degrade their order pool instead. Without tactical window, an 18 trooper list against a 14 trooper list can afford to spend 1 or 2 orders per turn reviving allies (effectively investing in order economy) to maintain a tempo advantage for the last turn of the game, while trying to attrit the lower order count, but likely more elite and durable, opponent.
That doesn't really take into account the trooper your reviving, or the circumstances. I've spent multiple orders in a game to have my Muhktar Doc (Doc on 17s) get Tarik back up. Was a nightmare for my opponent, and well worth the orders. I've even used a Ghulam paramedic to revive a teammate to get a link back up to 5 and let my HMG Ghulam fire with +3 BS. It cost an order, but made every order after that spent on shooting the HMG much more effective (I'm sure someone could figure out the break point for order efficiency...)
I used Rouhani in my 2 games of QK - but he never got to heal as he was primarily a cheap 1,5 wound link filler for my Ghulam team. I do have Docs and Paramedics in every N4 list, but in 11 games so far I have spend perhaps1-2 orders in total for reviving.
In N3 I wasn't running doctors at all, so I picked "more than in N3" since I sometimes run them now, although they rarely do any healing. That said, for the tempo reasons you mention, I think that their main purpose is reviving Heavy Infantry. Reviving a cheerleader often isn't worth the order. I've gotten Asawiras up on occasion, usually in the active turn after they went down to an unlucky crit ARO. The other use of doctors is to make your opponent waste orders killing your unconscious guys. But they will spend the orders to kill Asawiras anyway, thanks to regeneration. I'm planning to try more lists with a Ghulam doctor and a Nasmat or two in group 2, where the healing is free to the extent that I'm not likely to have a better use for the group 2 orders.
In N3, I would almost never take a doctor as I could simply spend those points directly on more combat troopers, chaff, or more effective specialists who were better placed to complete mission objectives. In N4 - the Asawira Doctor exists.
As always with this game, it all depends. I see three reasons to heal any given troop in my lists: First, and most generally, one has the "economy side": I'm investing an order (and possibly more, and a Command Token or more...) to get an order back in a future turn. If we take 15 regular orders, for example, that means a maximun of 45 orders for the game, and any normal (non-multiorder) troop will provide 0-3 to that. So, when it comes to orders, one has to think that investing a single order in turn 1 to heal a troop will return (potentially) 2 more orders for the game, but a troop recovered on T2 will at most break even, and a troop revived on T3 won't return the order invested on it. Now this is quite cut and dry, an paradoxically tends to be the least important factor considered when it comes to heal a troop, at least in my experience. What I mean is that, while I consider it, it rarely has a bearing on the decision. Second we have the "zero sum" part of the order economy, which is essentially the ARO mechanic. A single, unlinked, basic troop usually serves as little more than an extra prize to a repositioning enemy hunter, or a speedbump for a CJ/Parachutist troop' insertion, but dedicated ARO troops serve as order burners for the enemy, and also project a certain protection for the other troops, so these tend to be the "protection investment" yo do to avoid further losses in orders and field, not to mention sometimes they are lucky and kill well above their cost. Third we have the importance of the troop being recovered, which applies not only to doctoring a troop (removing IMM/ISO from a HI or TAG with an engineer, for example). A 6-12 cheerleader in a bad position not inside of a fireteam rarely gets considered for healing, unless the doctor or the remote can cram it for on the expenditure of an already important troop's recovery (you need to do two moves to reach the important troop, and you plan to leave the healer close to that one, so instead of move + move, then heal + inaction, you do two move + heal). On the other hand, taking Parvati to recover Achilles, who is also our Lt, is quite important. This third part also covers the gear and weapons of the troop, because while a combi is a dime a dozen, an AP-capable weapon has become quite important in N4, and high-burst ones are important. In the end, I try to cram either a doctor or an engineer, when I can't place both, when I make a list. They usually cost about half or so again from the base cost (exceptions include the Nomad's Clockmaker, punching at twice the cost of a Moderator, but Willpower 15), carry a combi like base troops, can punch buttons, and sometimes can even join fireteams, making them the nanny of a Rambo.
I think there's a massive difference between vanilla and sectorials with regard to this question. One advantage of sectorials, especially Haqq ones, is that your gunfighters can drag a doctor along with them, so you'll often be able to bring someone back in just one order. The changes to medikits make medics much more appealing this role, especially with the possibility of being burst 2, but it's still not as good as being able to succeed on a 17 or even 18. With vanilla factions, unless you already have a doctor or Nasmat right there, you're looking at spending a few orders just getting there. I'd it's a model you wanted to move into the midfield, great! If not? It often isn't worth it.
I've never been a fan of doctors, they tend to be too order intensive imo. I played mostly Shasvastii in N3, so doctor were usually a very poor choice (I wouldn't run one in N4 either if I was still playing that sectorial). I've been trying out the Sakiel paramedic in Tohaa in N4. They're a very low opportunity cost (only 2 points) and with the linked paramedic buff of N4, it's pretty reliable.
Agree - and one of the reasons why the Asawira is my go-to. Moving it upfield to do the things I want it to do anyway lets me reposition its palbots basically for free to attack or claim objectives, and with 6" movement on her it can be pretty low opportunity cost to throw in a doctor attempt in the process.
The purpose of a Doctor is very rarely to "get orders back". The purpose of a Doctor (or Engineer) is to give you the flexibility to put tools back on the table to help you complete the missions. In a mission where you need surviving points, it may be lower risk for you to heal your models than to neutralise your opponent's. You may need to revive a fast or tough specialist to have a better chance of pushing a button. You may want to get up a powerful attack piece your opponent just spent a lot of orders putting down. It won't happen in every game, but I find that the number of times it does is worth the low cost to upgrade from a line troop to a cheap doctor.
Here's a list I want to try out: Skirmishers and doctor ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 1 ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15) BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17) BARID (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (-3)]) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25) FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24) FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24) FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27) SHAYTANIYAH REMOTE Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16) GROUP 2 2 3 1 GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9) DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8) DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8) NADHIR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army I think it sort of exemplifies the pros and cons of HB doctors for me. On the one hand, I have a group 2 that isn't doing much. Sometimes I'll spend the group 2 orders on the Mutt, but certainly not every turn. So if I need to heal someone, I basically have free orders to do it, which sounds great. On the other hand, there isn't much in the list that actually wants to be healed. Pretty much just the Asawira. The squishy fireteam members rarely find themselves unconscious - when they go down, they're often taking two wounds or getting shocked. Same with the skirmishers, and also they're probably too far up the table for the doctor. It's the Haqq paradox: great doctors, not much worth doctoring. So I'm not excited about having the doctor in there, aside from wanting to try to use them more. But, what would go in there instead of the doctor? I'd have 19 points to fill the last spot in my list, and HB has very little that's interesting in that range. Pretty much just Leila - I suppose I could have her there as a sixth fireteam member, but then I'm just concentrating even more squishy light infantry in one spot on the table. The doctor kind of seems like the only interesting option unless I want to rejig the whole list to free up more points. I want doctors to work, so I'm hoping the list will play well :-) OTOH, here's a list more typical of my N4 doctor experience: Countermeasures ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) ASAWIRA (Doctor [+3]) AP Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36) YARA HADDAD (Strategic Deployment) AP Marksman Rifle / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 28) BARID (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (-3)]) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17) ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15) SHAYTANIYAH REMOTE Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16) FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27) FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) GROUP 2 1 4 1 FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8) DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8) DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8) MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army This performed exactly as intended in a tournament game of Countermeasures recently. Turn 1, the Core moves up and scores classifieds with the hacker and MSV. Turn 2, the Asawira Duo moves up and kills some guys, and the doctor scores Inoculation. I've been running a lot of lists along these lines, and the doctor is great for scoring specialist mission objectives - the one thing he never seems to do is heal anyone!
It's very situational, but I've been using them more than I did in N3. In N3 I rarely took a doctor (unless it was the Ackbar Janissaire and even then, I rarely revived the Az'Rail).
Hello, I'm pretty much agree with @theresponsibleone I'am not a doctor's fan in other factions, but in haquisslam they will have some use. To me are good specialist in "button pushing" with an extra. Against haquisslam the enemy probably allways will try to shoot on that "uncounscious guy", this could become a waste of orders he could regret later. Still in Vainilla or Ramah we can count on "hakims" a doctor who nobody expects. If I can safely do use of "doctor" i will take it, if not, I will do use of medikit instead.
I admit, I'm quite doctor-dependent. Outside Haqq I rarely add doctors in my lists, but in Haqqislam they're so order effective that they're a common view in my tables. Aside the high WIP and Doctor plus, we're basically able to field this specialist everywhere. - Airborn deployment? check - Hidden deployment? check - Outside deployment zone? check - Fireteams? Hell yeah, basically in every one, with multiple choices. Potentially we have the ability to put a doctor beside any unit, in any point of the table, without the need to move him in place to perform his miracles. I always use them as safeguard for my aggressive pieces, to prevent unlucky AROs (put the doctor near the HMG unit, patch him if a reactive shot put him in unconscious, resume the shooting).
Having just tried the Asawira doctor in vanilla, I must say I'm impressed. It's though to loose out on the AP spitfire, but the Asawira want to move up the board anyhow, so actions spent to get in place with a Nasmat remote aren't really wasted. In my game, I needed to try and heal Knauf back up, because he was my best shot at dealing with a defensive link team locking down the board for me. Moving there and accomplishing it with a Nasmat remote linked to the Asawira would take two orders, but it wasn't as huge an investment as it would otherwise have been, because it also allowed me to move the Asawira up the board into a position to claim an objective next round - unless the opponent deals with her (which is easier said than done, as she's such a badass). The healing of Knauf also gave me a VP, because I had the doctor classified. A doctor with Regeneration is a useful combo, as well. It makes it so much harder for your enemy to assassinate your doctor. Because the Asawira is likely to die sooner rather than later, however, I think I would only invest in one Nasmat remote for her, rather than two, trying to fulfill a more limited doctor role than a backline Ghulam doctor would. That objective would typically be to heal my main long-range link breaker.
However, I do feel that I use my doctors slightly less than in N3. Not because the order investment isn't worth it, but rather that Shock, Fire and DA ammo is more widespread now, so it's rarer that my guys survive.
I actually started playing vanilla Haqq recently, after previously playing QK, and I find that the Asawira Doctor with Nasmat is an excellent unit. Its durable enough and strong enough at gunfighting to act as an offensive button pusher, while using the nasmat to opportunistically heal unconscious models. The Asawira has much better order efficiency than most other doctors (and maybe even more than link doctors as they can cover more of the table), since you really want to spend orders on them regardless of whether they have to doctor someone. Thank you all for the comments by the way, I was surprised to see that about 2/3 of the respondents to the poll said that they use doctors as often or more frequently than they did in N3.
A doctor I like for vanilla is the Sekban doc. Middling points, high armor in weight class, a BSG, 360 visor and NCO. NCO is real useful on a doc and the good BS and BSG means you can knockout anything that gets in your zone on the way to do doctor work.
