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ZoC premeasuring!!

Discussion in 'Rules' started by QueensGambit, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    The text specifically states "Declare ARO" and lists the four conditions that allow it. If none of those are met, no ARO (even an invalid one) can be declared at all.
     
  2. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Thats the thing, if the 2 troopers are already in lof and I'm the reactive player shooting with a combi, and they are close to 8 inches with guard or a shotgun, I may wish to not measure ZoC to not have my opponent know the correct choice.

    So it being good info for both players is not correct.

    Which leads back to does the reactive player have the control of when to measure, or both players?
     
  3. Lareon

    Lareon Well-Known well-knower

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    Ok, now the burning question I was discussing with @tox few minutes ago (i love you dude).

    [​IMG]

    The ZoC checking seems optional ("can") to me, and it's not bound to anything else. As Tox said, "you don't need to check ZoC" if you already have LoF". But the real question is: can you?
    Adding context to the issue, as this rule is described it seems that I can still check ZoC with an already visible trooper (nothing prevents me to doing so), providing the lateral advantage of giving me a pre-measuring range within 8".
    So I can still decide to check Zone of Control of the active trooper to see if I'm within shotgun/pistol range or not, even if I already have LoF (so the check would be useless for a simple aro declaration control). Do I miss something?
     
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  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    "Players can check from the active trooper if any trooper or game element is inside the ZoC of the active trooper" is completely unambiguous.

    Active trooper's ZoC is just known once it's declared its first short skill. Simple and clean.
     
  5. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    As always, if both players agree that a model is unambiguously in or out of ZoC, there's no need to measure. Just like you aren't obligated to get down to model level and validate LoF when it's obvious it exists (or doesn't).

    I've hated the ambiguity of not knowing whether or not you had a ZoC ARO for as long as I've been playing, and I'm happy to see it finally gone.
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Just a little reminder, now enforced
    upload_2021-6-16_8-30-16.png
     
  7. Lareon

    Lareon Well-Known well-knower

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    Tox "you don't need" is different from "you cannot". The first one means "you're not obliged to do it, but if you want, go for it". As I understand what you meant in the discussion we had yesterday, what you're trying to say is that "you cannot do it, if you already have LoF" (this to prevent pre-measuring of weapon ranges).

    Now, if the original meaning of this fix was "you're not supposed to abuse ZoC check to measure ranges of units already in LoF" I understand and approve it, but you need to do a formal declaration of this intention, as everyone in the community (here in this thread, as well in the WGC channel) are saying otherwise.

    So please guys, fix the wording in the FAQ if the correct rule is "you cannot measure ZoC to pre-measure ranges of troops already in LoF". Otherwise the basically almost unanimous consensus in the community is "no requirements prevents me to measure ZoC of the active troop, regardless of what I have in LoF or what I'm going to do in the declaration step".
     
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  8. Rocker

    Rocker Well-Known Member

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    Am I interpreting the FAQ 1.1.1 correctly: You can declare BS attack (or any ARO) to an enemy trooper activating in your ZoC and out of LoF? The requirement is checked at resolution, so if the target stays out of LoF it turns into idle, otherwise I get to shoot.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's the logical consequence of removing that FAQ entry - active player can declare BS Attack against targets they have no LOF to and reactive players can do it if they have an ARO, any ARO. Means Guard is taken down several notches, particularly against other melee units, and getting into melee without smoke or Marker state becomes harder.

    Edit: this also lends weight to the notion that the CC Attack and Base to Base interim ruling being obsolete.
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Yes, so speculative CC Attacks and BS Attacks are now entirely possible.
    The twist is it also works for AROs, so no one gets screwed in the most common scenario.

    Fixes ZoC Smoke + MSV
    Fixes Linkteam/Coordinated Order White Noise Aro baiting vs MSV AROs
    Fixes Move + CC Attack
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If a trooper declares CC Attack before moving into melee with an enemy with their back turned, doesn't that count as declaring an attack that is "directed at them by enemies outside their LoF" so that Sixth Sense would allow that trooper to shoot regardless of facing?
     
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  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    upload_2021-6-16_10-37-45.png

    What you're suggesting doesn't work RAW.
    A CC Attacker attacking a Sixth Sense model from behind already is inside LOF (unless also in Smoke) since the reacting trooper will gain LOF from getting engaged. First clause of of Sixth Sense doesn't trigger and Engaged will make the BS Attack impossible.

    Receiving a CC Attack while in Smoke means the Sixth Sense Trooper will not have LOF, which would trigger Sixth Sense, which in turn only grants you a 360° LOF arc, which you already have from being in CC and is still blocked by Smoke, so nothing changes and you can't shoot anyway.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They changed BS Attack requirements in the FAQ, you can't use LOF gained from being Engaged to BS Attack. The last line of this bullet point is relevant:

    Be able to draw Line of Fire (LoF) to the target of the BS Attack, unless the BS Weapon, Skill or piece of Equipment used doesn’t require LoF. LoF gained from being in Silhouette contact does not count for this Requirement.
     
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The point isn't that you can't use the LOF for BS Attack, which is imho clarification, the point is you have LOF during Resolution so Sixth Sense doesn't trigger.
    "Allows the user to respond to Attacks directed at them by enemies outside their LOF"
    By the time you hit Resolution that's not going to be valid, since the CC Attacker will be Engaged and that grants you LOF to the attacker.
     
  15. Rocker

    Rocker Well-Known Member

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    I like it! I had a suggestion of adding delay option as ARO to out of LoF ZOC troopers, but this way is better, and still removes "abusive" strategies.
     
  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    My first impression of this was quite negative but upon further reflection I think it's a net positive.

    Like, if I approach with a Monk near a Fusilier and he preemptively declares BS Attack before I turn around the corner, I could instead throw smoke or declare Dodge and reach him unmolested.
    Should he declare Dodge I could just yolo it and move into B2B relatively safe (depending on the situation).

    I will GLADLY take this new dynamic if it kills the Smoke/ZoC bait or being unable to CC respond against Guard in certain situations.

    PS: It doesn't "fix" the Hacker Asura in Smoke vs certain targets but that's such a niche that I have accepted that as being "her thing" since the inception of N4
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Unfortunately it doesn't fix the Guard problem of either forcing a Dodge/BS Attack vs a much superior CC Attack or getting a Normal Roll vs CC Attack.
    Core problem is that even a Speculative ARO is known first and if the ARO is CC Attack the Guard will get a normal roll BS Attack instead (which turns the CC Attack ARO into an Idle).
    TL:DR CC Specialists are still pretty gimped vs Guard.
     
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  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Ah, yes... Forgot about that part.

    Oh well, I still stand by the rest of the post! :nerd_face:
     
  19. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    If the Fusilier has Sixth Sense then yes. or if the Monk doesn't use his Stealth.
    This overall implies that Sixth Sense might've become an useful Skill for a Fireteam's safety. On the other hand full Core and 4 man Fireteams with an overload of DTWs will be a pain in the ass to approach from now on.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    On the topic of CC Attack + Move; can you even declare to perform a skill in a location that your unit is not (yet) in? The exact point you are going to perform the skill in has to be part of your skill declaration, after all.
     
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