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Transmutation(Auto)

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Mahtamori, Jun 9, 2021.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Let's start off with the rules quote: "This change always happens at the beginning of their Movement, applying the new Unit Profile for the entire sequence of that Movement."
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Transmutation?version=n4

    Obviously, since a Su-Jian can shift multiple times during an order, it only applies the profile during the movement sequence and not the entire order, but shifting for the Su-Jian also affects a Su-Jian's combat ability.
    So the question is: For the Su-Jian, what BS and Special Skills do I apply when I declare a BS Attack during an order that my Su-Jian has transmuted?
    a. Is it the form that I have when I declare it?
    b. Is it the form that I had at the point I declare my shots from regardless of order I declare skills in?
    c. Is it the form that I have at step 6 of the order?

    0. Su-Jian is in Combat Form behind an S2-high wall. Since Combat Form is S5, the Su-Jian can see over it. These walls/crates are common among Designed For Infinity so the situation is not a corner case.
    1. Su-Jian is activated, an order is spent.
    1b. Su-Jian declares Move, Transmutes to Mobility Form, and moves 8" away.
    2. Opponent Bounty Hunter with a Multi Sniper can see the initial position so declares a BS Attack on the Su-Jian
    3. Su-Jian, given that the initial Combat Form could see the Bounty Hunter, declares BS Attack with the S5 silhouette's volume as the point of attack.
    4. Opponent has no further ARO.
    5. We check that the Bounty Hunter did indeed have an ARO - and yes, the Su-Jian was visible when it activated.
    6. We check that skills have correct requirements and make measurements. The Bounty Hunter picks the S5 silhouette as a target and the Su-Jian, but when the Su-Jian player tries to use the S5 silhouette's BS 14, the Bounter Hunter's player objects that the Su-Jian's profile only has BS 12 right now. The Su-Jian player asks why they didn't object earlier when they used the S5 profile's attribute to shoot from.

    Note: The situation is reversible - start in Mobility Form and shift to Combat, then attempt to shoot from the initial Mobility Form - however, this can basically only come into play if a standing Mobility Su-Jian shifts into a Prone Combat Form at which point this works to the detriment of the Su-Jian.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, as you can see, I've kind of convinced myself of B as the answer here, so it's a bit of a discussion. I think most people are playing it using C as the answer, but I'm saying that "hey, guys, maybe the Su-Jian is cooler than we give it credit for"
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I agree with B.
     
  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Hmm. B intuitively seems to make the most sense, but I'll engage in some devil's advocacy:

    The fusilier Angus is standing. He activates and declares Dodge. There are no AROs. For his second short skill, he declares Move, goes prone, and moves 2". In Resolution, he passes his Dodge roll. How far can he move using his Dodge movement?

    I would assume he can only move 1", because he's prone in the Resolution phase when the Dodge is resolved. However, he was standing when he declared the Dodge. Possible conclusion: when a trooper's status changes in the course of an order, if his status matters to how a skill is Resolved, you apply the status that the trooper has at Resolution, not the status he had when the skill was declared.

    Put another way: the Su Jian isn't supposed to get the benefit of both MOV 8 and BS 14 in the same order. Because of All At Once, he shoots at the Bounty Hunter while he's in the process of transforming into a tiger, so he doesn't shoot as well as he would have if he shot while staying in humanoid form.
     
  5. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    For the specific scenario above: isn't there a fourth interpretation? The one other instance of changing silhouettes that I can think of is when doing Discover + BS attack at a mine behind a chest high wall. The Discover is performed against the S2 camo marker and the BS attack gets cancelled because the mine itself is not visible.

    Could it be that the Su-Jian changes it's silhouette and is no longer a valid target because there is no LoF?

    Basically, this is answer C with additional enforcement of S value during the entire skill.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I am not quite sure that your argument is Devil's'ing the answer option you intend. Under the suggestion for how B would work, the prone movement would take place in and during a point in movement when Angus is Prone, meaning that he'd move 1".

    It seems the answer you are advocating against with that example is A (an answer which would also give the situation where declaring BS Attack first and then scooting away in Mobility Form be resolved different from moving away first before declaring the attack). Although, I must point out that the Dodge movement is declared at the end of the order so even under A you'd likely have to move Angus using Prone effects, which is the beauty of movement in Infinity being declared and executed immediately.

    Just to be clear, it is equally possible that the Su-Jian is fully incapable of shooting at all, whether using the superior Combat optics or the inferior optics available to the Mobility form, while in the transformation process making a comparison to such a sequence of actions useless as a means of rules argument.
     
  7. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Hmm, you're right. The fact that you shoot a BS attack from a specific point, despite the All At Once principle, lends support to B.

    I'd quibble with your terminology here. I'd say one declares skills and executes movement. So you declare Move and execute its movement in the declaration step, whereas you declare Dodge in the declaration step but execute its movement in the resolution step - you don't "declare" dodge movement at resolution. So under A, Angus would have been standing at the point he declared the dodge, but prone when he executed it (similarly, the Siu Jian was humanoid when it declared BS Attack, but feline when it executed it). But I'm just quibbling, since maybe nobody is arguing in favour of A.

    This seems like the least likely option. The Transformation(Auto) wording seems to mirror the Prone wording, and we know that a unit that starts standing, then declares Move and goes Prone, can still shoot at something it only saw from its standing position. The wording can be contrasted with the Dismount wording where the dismounting pilot can't shoot at something that only the TAG could see.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Kind of.
    Note that the rule I quoted in the OP says the new profile is used "for the entire sequence of that Movement" which would mean that at time of activation prior to that movement, you're not using the new profile. Also keeping in mind is that Discover+BS Attack is an exception in the rules that creates a special sequencing to skills and that because Transmutation doesn't explicitly create a special resolution sequence you can't really make this comparison.
    I know I kind of hinted at this answer when I wrote the way the hypothetical Su Jian player's response, but I think we can discount this version.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. A more correct way of putting it is that the "movement path is declared at the end of the order and not at skill declaration" or something more similar to the effect of specifying that movement is declared separately from the skill.

    There's also nothing in the rules that suggests that the Su-Jian is capable of shooting while "he's in the process" of transforming as there's just no such thing as "process of transforming" in the rules ;)
    I'm basically saying that this "shooting while in the process of transforming" is a visualisation of what's happening and that there are other ways of visualising how things may be happening in the manga version of the battle.

    Oh, and do note that the Pilot's rules have this solved by stating that the new profile is used for the entire sequence of the order, which is what would've been necessary for it to work like how @FlipOwl suggested would be answer D

    P.s. which is not to say I don't think C would be the wrong answer, it's more that it feels like there's something in the rules that is missing or something I'm missing to make it a solid one.
     
    #9 Mahtamori, Jun 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  10. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    And we know that we're far from home when the Pilot rules are held up as a beacon of clarity...
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Except we know that a model that starts Standing declares Move and goes Prone can both shoot and be shot in the position in which it was activated. This means that even if you immediately shift from a standing Combat Form to a Prone Movement Form you'd activate and be able to be ARO'd against as an S5.

    The argument for not B is that you check mods and make Rolls as part of Resolution. Part of "making rolls" is using the profile to determine the base attribute. In this interpretation you'd apply the attribute at Resolution. This ends up with an incoherent outcome: precedent from Prone is that the S5 was activated and is able to be ARO'd against but the BS associated with S5 would not be able to be used.

    This is why I like B. It's congruent with the way going Prone at the first opportunity and the use of the profile is coherent throughout.

    And yes I know that changing a profile through Transmutation and going Prone is not the same thing, but they're similar enough for people to expect them to work the same way.

    The other answer is that it works like Dismount, and the original Combat Form profile is never activated and as such can't be used for LOF. I think this creates more issues with expectations than it solves so I strongly don't like it.

    Overall, I think B has the least problems is easy to explain, is congruent with other rules. So B.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's what I wrote?
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes? Either my reading or phrasing was off.

    We're agreeing with each other though: making Transmutation work like going Prone makes the most sense.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I mean, I'm arguing that the movement portion of Transmutation (Auto) already works like that. The big question is whether you can use the profile you had at the start of the order if conducting skills at the initial position (B) or if you only use the one you have at time of resolution step (C)
     
  15. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    It just feels weird. In my opinion if you declare Move (transformation) and then BS then at that point your profile is already different. You still can shoot from S5 at the beginning because there was a moment during that order when you had this silhouette. Bit if you declare BS and then Move (transformation) then it makes sense to use profile you had at declaration of the skill.
    So it's A for me.
    But that's just like my opinion man.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes and I'm saying the alternative is you get the situation where you use the Combat Form SIL bit the Movement Form BS. Which is incongruous, and therefore I don't like it.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Why A over C?

    Nothing in Declaration of a skill requires a particular attribute.
     
  18. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Either interpretation doesn't have strict confirmation in rules. So we are left with guessing for time being. And for me at least option A just seems to make the most sense. I shot at the time of being in Combat form then i use combat form profile. And it's hard to prioritize All at Once here, we would be left with being in both profiles at the same time. But again, it's just an opinion, and a little bit of hope. If C is real then it's a slight nerf to SJ, and our boy already has some issues in this edition.
     
  19. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Honestly, I think A is more intuitive in practice. Whatever form you’re using at skill declaration is the one that applies. This also aligns with the details of a skill mostly having to be pinned down at declaration, so it’s easier to remember.

    If you want to shoot in combat mode and move in mobility mode in a single Order where you started off in combat mode, declare BS Attack first and Move (transmute) second. In the next Order you’ll be able to invert that sequence so you can switch back to combat mode and move a shorter distance, firing somewhere along the path traveled.

    If you want to retain the flexibility of full mobility speed and your option to choose a second short skill after hearing what the ARO will be, you’ve got to accept lower BS as the tradeoff.
     
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