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Protheion questions (Damage taken vs protheion)

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arkhos94, May 19, 2021.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Here is a situation of my last game :

    Nourkias (no power up yet, no damage taken yet) is performing move to reach base contact with an hexa

    Hexa use CC ARO
    Orc with LoF on Nourkias use BS Attack ARO (with feuerbach)

    Nourkias perform CC attack for his second action

    Result :
    CC : Hexa makes a 5, Nourkias makes 10 and 11 => Hexa makes 4 BTS roll => Hexa fails all 4 BTS roll
    BS attack : Orc passes his 2 roll (because fireteam) => Nourkias makes 6 ARM roll => Nourkias fails 2 rolls (lucky me I know)

    What is the result at the end of the action ?
    1. Nourkias inflicted 4 wound to the hexa, receive 2 from the orc => Nourkias end up with power up 2
    2. Nourkias inflicted 4 wound to the hexa, the Hexa can only receive 2 (1 to go unconscious, 1 to die), receive 2 from the orc => Nourkias end up with no power up (but 100% undamage)
    3. Another option I cannot think off

    We went with option 2 but my personnal understanding is on option 1. What's true ?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Protheion only allows you to gain a Power-Up per Wound the target lost - not per save they failed. Hexa can at most lose two wounds before going into negative and thus dead and removed from the game.

    Option 2 should be correct.

    Unfortunately, this is not part of the FAQ (it was for N3), I can see it being helpful to have in the FAQ
     
  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the answer, i played it wrong until now
     
    #3 Arkhos94, May 20, 2021
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  4. Qwerinaga

    Qwerinaga Active Member

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    I hope you will allow me to doubt your words.
    The rules on page 44 say: "However, if the Wounds/STR Atribute falls below 0..."
    This suggests that the W/STR value could be negative.
    Which, in turn, may mean that every successful hit inflicts a wound.

    Also, on page 44 there is a text:
    "A trooper in the Unconscious state loses one or more(!) points from his Wounds/STR Attribute."
    Which directly tells us that a model with zero W/STR can get more than 1 wound.
     
    #4 Qwerinaga, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  5. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Models with both STR and remote presence get second unconscious state before going to dead state, this is why they can take additional point of damage. Units with wounds can only take as many damage as their Wound characteristic plus one that puts them into dead state. And protein only works on units with wounds so nothing changes here.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Those are fair points, but on the balance of things I would say that the rules never really handles negative attributes directly, but I'm willing to concede that I've got doubts as to whether I'm reading it entirely correctly or not. As a small request, when giving references to pages could you also reference the skill or section you're referencing so they can be looked up in the wiki? I don't think I'm alone in having difficulties reading the rulebook on electronic devices.

    ---

    As a minor point, in the event that several units with Protheion triggers the ability against the same target, I'd say that you can get more Power-Up Markers combined for the same reasons why several units with Frenzy over-killing a unit can still trigger Frenzy - all damage is applied all at once without sequencing and the recipient suffers resulting effects after all attacks have been resolved and never sequentially (even if it can speed the game up to do it sequentially as long as you remember the edge cases)
     
  7. Qwerinaga

    Qwerinaga Active Member

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    Oh, I'm sorry. I mentioned "Damage"(upd "Unconscious") and "Dead state" sections.
     
    #7 Qwerinaga, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
    Mahtamori likes this.
  8. Qwerinaga

    Qwerinaga Active Member

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    Reasonable objection. But "remote presence" is a special case, described separately. It would be strange to see such a reference to it in the general rules.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was Dead state, but I wasn't entirely sure ;)
     
  10. Qwerinaga

    Qwerinaga Active Member

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    It was a bad idea to guess the title of the section from the text of the book. The first quote refers to "Unconscious". In book it looks like subsection of "damage", but in wiki its separate sections.
    Unfortunately, I can't find a detailed sequence of the damage infliction anywhere. It would be very helpful in this case.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The game operates with an "all at once" policy. There is no sequence to damage being applied as such. Yeah, it does makes things complicated but it does also make things interesting.
     
  12. Qwerinaga

    Qwerinaga Active Member

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    Lets see. As its described in "Wounds and Structure":
    "each successful hit reduces the Wounds/STR Attribute of the target of the Attack by 1 point. When this happens, place a Wound Token (WOUND) next to the Trooper. ... If the Trooper has lost enough Wounds/STR points to fall Unconscious, use an Unconscious State Token (UNCONSCIOUS) instead.'
    So the question is: When exactly it is checked whether model received "enough" wounds? After placing all the wounds it got durind this order or after each failed saving throw separately?
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, since all saving throws are technically taken at the same time due to the All At Once rule (practically it may be easier to split them up), checking after each saving throw and after placing wounds is effectively the same timing.
     
  14. Qwerinaga

    Qwerinaga Active Member

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    To my shame, I am not sure that I understood your answer correctly. Alas, English is not my native language.

    More arguments.
    The "Escape System" rule says:
    "If the TAG lost more(!) STR points than it had remaining, the excess points(!!) are subtracted from the Pilot's profile."
    The "Transmutation" rule says:
    "If the Trooper lost more(!) points of its W/STR Attribute than the initial Unit Profile had remaining, those extra points(!!) will be subtracted from the second Unit Profile at the end of that Order."

    ! - Model can loose more w/str points tha it has.
    !! - And this number can be more than one.

    Summarizing:

    1. We have several rules that indirectly say that the model can lose much more w/str points than it has.

    2. There is no rule which directly or indirectly states the opposite.
     
    #14 Qwerinaga, Jun 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
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