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How to Handle Reserves?

Discussion in 'ITS' started by quaade, May 5, 2021.

  1. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Is there anything you say that isn’t pulled from the depths of your ass?

    503 is internal server error, specifically when the server indicates it is not ready to handle a request.

    CB already said there were server issues over the weekend but they’ve been resolved. Nothing to do with client-side cookies.

    @Koni is there any way to call for someone’s warcor status to be reviewed? This guy should not be teaching new players how to play the game.
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Well, I didn’t want to say anything but since people mentioned this several times, I can assure you a bit with the fact that this person haven’t played against anyone for several years, as he is banned from several areas.

    His rise to infamy was when he persuaded a new player to perform Move with his second short skill, only to reveal a Noctifer who could now take an uncontested shot against an entire link (all but 1 died).
    This was against a new player who entered his first tournament and nearly made him quit the game entirely.

    I haven’t heard or seen any tournament held by this person nor have I heard him do much of intros (if any).

    To be fair, the last part is not a unique thing and the amount of actual active Warcors could actually use some trimming, as there’s an alarming number of them who are just Warcor’s status, just to milk early info from CB and not much else.
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Yikes.
     
    #63 RobertShepherd, May 19, 2021
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Is someone implying that this line:
    doesn't mean what it says?

    Maybe i misread the thread... You never know...
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  5. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

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    I've moved on from that paragraph. How come you're still on it?

    I searched the Wiki for the term "undeployed." These are all the instances I found (https://infinitythewiki.com/index.php?search=undeployed&title=Special:Search&profile=default&fulltext=1). It's literally only used in one example and that example concerns the game sequence, as in the active part of the game where turns happen.

    How are you using that argument in good faith and me pointing out that there's literally none of the rules concerning deployment or Open and Private Information bad faith?

    As I explained above. I've moved on from that. I've looked at every instance I could find of the deployment phase and Open and Private Information and I've been unable to find anything that even implies the model held back is Private Information.

    If I've missed something link it, something that in context relates to the deployment, that indicates that the model held back is Private Information. Even the deployment sequence implies that it's open. "...the player who kept Deployment, the first player places all but one of his Troopers totally inside his Deployment Zone." (https://infinitythewiki.com/Initiative_and_Deployment#Deployment_Phase) later. If it said "choose one then deploy the rest, or something similar, then it would imply that the chosen model was Private since the choice is made before the models are placed.
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    You keep all the info regarding the reserve trooper as private as long as it is not deployed. You can see the relevant quote in my post just above.

    As soon as it touch the table, you MUST disclose ("must" is the verb chosen in the rules) all of his Open Info.

    And please consider the NUMBER of model held as Open Info. That number is modified with Open Info skill or expenditure of Command Tokens, so there is no way to keep it from your opponent.
     
    chromedog and Dragonstriker like this.
  7. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

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    It has touched the table at this point, at least for the purposes of deployment, and then chosen to be fully deployed later. Also, simply because the model is TBD its existence is still Open Information. Nowhere in the list of what is Private Information (https://infinitythewiki.com/Open_and_Private_Information) does it explicitly or implicitly state that undeployed models are Private Information.

    It's only mentioned in relation to how you create the Order Pool

    This is from the ITS document and disproves what you say

    SPORTSMANSHIP

    All participants in an event, whether Organizers, Players, or guests, are expected to conduct themselves in a friendly and considerate manner at all times. If a participant disrupts the good atmosphere of an event, the Organizer may penalize them or altogether remove them from play.

    Minimum player etiquette includes giving the opponent time to clearly see the results on your dice before picking them up, sharing with the opponent all open information from your army list and clarifying it as often as requested, waiting for the opponent to declare ARO whenever you spend an Order, etc.


    The bolded part states that I can ask even from before my opponent has to give me a CL. This is, granted, annoying, so most people just hand over a CL at the start of the game. This is also in the spirit of sportsmanship.
     
  8. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Because you’re full of shit?
    Come again?
    Are you actually fucking serious?
    “The undeployed model is deployed” - you’re a moron, a troll, or both.
     
    #68 Dragonstriker, May 19, 2021
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  9. Surmelk

    Surmelk Well-Known Member

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    If you had to share open info before you deploy your model, then the rule "you must share Open Information about your Army List while you deploy your Models, Markers and Tokens during the Deployment Phase" would be pointless.

    Wording seems clear to me. The asking part is after deployment.

    Have never ever seen it played otherwise and that seems to be how everyone in the thread are saying it is.
     
  10. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    Oh, I'm absolutely cool with only playing a couple of tournaments a year, and I'm equally fine for that number not to increase. One or two local events (after I get vaccinated. I don't trust other people *that* much - I still look both ways before crossing a one-way street.) and maybe a 'national'.
    No reflection on the local warcor (@deltakilo, who does an amazing job of organising events) - I just don't need tournaments to help me enjoy the "game". Hell, for that matter, I don't even need the game. I'm a modelmaker and painter first and foremost, and the playing of games with the mandollies falls far down the list. It's a wonky tripod with a short leg, but that's what the rulebook is for, to prop up that wonky leg. :D

    I've been a TO for at least 3 game systems. Ran several successful events, and usually had pretty good feedback afterwards. I know what it takes to run an event, and how thankless it can be.
     
  11. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    In the page you linked...
    upload_2021-5-19_13-15-24.png
    When you deploy your reserve model, you disclose his Open Info.

    HOW THE HELL IS IT SO DIFFICULT?
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That's a move that gets the sock maggie.
     
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    As we play it and always had been playing it reserve models are not public information and are a surprise, yes, it diminishes hidden deployment models a bit if you really need to keep the model in reserve (but puts some psychological pressure on the opponent since he knows there is something out there).

    I can understand the argument since there are people who really hate any unknowns and want full knowledge of the game state, but I do believe this comes tot he detriment of the game and the strategy reserve troops have on the game.

    Now for some administrative comments, calling for other community members especially Warcors, but also other prominent community members publicly is at best considered bad form, I would appreciate if you feel there are issues with community members to use the report function and for warcors especially please use the appropriate email, publicly calling out a community member just creates a bad atmosphere and hinders discussion.
     
  14. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    @Hecaton called it.
    Kruger, Justin; Dunning, David (1999). "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments". Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 77 (6): 1121–1134. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.64.2655. doi:10.1037/0022-3514.77.6.1121. PMID 10626367.
    Although I like:
    "Why losers have delusions of grandeur". New York Post. 23 May 2010
     
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  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think I was clear in the post above, if not, do not personally attack other forum members.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  16. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    And I thought arguing about government weather control satellites was asinine.
    Consider any piece of information on a player's Army List that is not explicitly Private as Open and knowable to all.
    There are no other considerations. It doesn't say it starts at a certain point in deployment. This is super clear.
     
  17. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

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    That would be oxymoronic. You also imply that this is what I said, which is a strawman, as nowhere is the model actually called undeployed, and the term is also used only when it comes to counting Orders for the Order Pool. What you do is that you apply the specific terminology of a different context to another context.

    Rules have to be permissible for, whatever happens, else we're just playing Calvinball and whoever has the best argument is right if the rules tell you what you're unable to do instead of what you can do. As an example, nowhere in the rules does it say that models are unable to teleport around the table only that when moving they're unable to move more than their Movement Value. A teleport is just a displacement of mass into an unoccupied space instead of a move if you want to get technical. So I would apply a different context to an element of the game unrelated to it despite we both clearly knowing that the popular vernacular for teleportation is "moving in space."

    Also, this is just ad hominem instead of an argument. Using arguments and citations there's nothing I can see within the rules that give explicit or implied permission for the withheld model to be Private Information.

    I'll answer both at once. Whatever is explicitly stated is overruled by this, if you play after ITS standards, as it states how you should act. (Also, Tox, posting in caps and etc while feeling like an argument is none. If you think this is so straightforward use arguments instead of telling me it's straightforward. Else it just seems like a /forehead take)

    SPORTSMANSHIP

    All participants in an event, whether Organizers, Players, or guests, are expected to conduct themselves in a friendly and considerate manner at all times. If a participant disrupts the good atmosphere of an event, the Organizer may penalize them or altogether remove them from play.

    Minimum player etiquette includes giving the opponent time to clearly see the results on your dice before picking them up, sharing with the opponent all open information from your army list and clarifying it as often as requested, waiting for the opponent to declare ARO whenever you spend an Order, etc.


    Which is pretty clear on it. If I request the information before deployment you have to give it. If I request everything about all the enemy models most often they'll just hand over a CL as that's faster than saying it themselves, and in the spirit of sportsmanship as described. That section implies that you should avoid "gotcha's" entirely.

    Interesting take. I can only answer that with that in my own anecdotal evidence and call to tradition no one I've ever played with nationally has ever done this. I've only experienced it when I moved to TTS.

    Granted, I did introduce most of the people I've played with to the game so they're influenced in how I play the game. There have been some groups that have started without my involvement and none of them played it as the withheld model being Private Information. And one of them even started back in N1. I only started in late N2.

    It's something that needs an official ruling though. As either the translation is wrong and the model is indeed Private Information, or the model is Open Information and people have been interpreting this wrong so long that it's become systemic at this point.
     
    #77 quaade, May 19, 2021
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  18. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Again, you are adding shit.
    A.) that's only talking about OPEN information
    B.) NOTHING says i have to give you private information
    C.) NOTHING says i have to give you info before deployment.
     
    #78 Cthulhu363, May 19, 2021
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    You’re implying they don’t?
    What’s next, you’re gonna suggest big tech, big pharma and the elites isn’t setting up 5G antenna to deteriorate our immune system and keep us controlled by their drugs?

    Wake up, sheep!
     
  20. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

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    This is less of a convincing argument since you also posted this

    There's no magic point, according to this when the information changes. This means there's a conflict between that citation and the deployment rules for when things become open information. When it comes to interpretation about rules and I have conflicting messages I always tend toward the interpretation that serves me the worst version for me. And the worst version for me is that it's open information since I'm unable to put down a surprise <thing>. And we need a ruling from CB on this since there's a clear incongruence in the translation that means two opposite things at once. Obi-Wan @Koni, please, you're our only hope.

    And also, there's nothing that says you have to, I've long since stopped using this line, you seem stuck on it. I'm saying that's it's in your interest to give a CL at the start since then your opponent can stop asking about everything, and you'd be observing sportsmanship by doing so. You're fully within your rights to withhold the CL until you finished deploying, and the opponent is also in their right to keep asking you to make sure that they counter with the right models.

    I also never said anything about Private Information, I've said since the start that there's nothing in the rules that indicates that the model set aside is Private Information. If your withheld model is a Marker you say you withhold a Marker. If your withheld model is HD you say nothing, which is the same as saying that you have HD though it's more likely to go under the radar.
     
    #80 quaade, May 19, 2021
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
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