MOVE + BS ATTACK (OR VICE VERSA)Since the Skills used in an Order are simultaneous, a BS Attack can be declared at any point during the route followed by the Move Skill. If the Burst is divided among several targets, all shots must be made from a single point. Usually, the attack is made from the position that offers the biggest advantage: a clear LoF, targets out of Cover, optimal range, etc. DIRECT TEMPLATE WEAPONSEFFECTS ►They do not require a BS Roll to hit. ►The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack in order to determine if the Main Target is inside in the Area of Effect and which Troopers and Game Elements (Markers, Deployable weapons or Equipment…) will be affected by the Attack, as this may influence their possible ARO, or second Short Skill of their Order. Reads to me like you can declare a BS attack at any point and when you declare you have to say what you're using, who the targets are and where you will shoot from and if using a direct template weapon place the template so it's clear if you can actually hit your target.
Page 21 under order expenditure sequence in red box IMPORTANT All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, Entire Order Skill or ARO must be specified when it is declared.For instance, if you declare a movement, specify the entire route; if you declare a BS Attack, specify which Weapon will be used, who the targets are, where the Trooper shoots from, how the Burst is divided, etc. If the Player declares a Skill and, during the Resolution step, he realizes the Requirements are not met, then the Skill is cancelled and the Trooper is considered to have performed an Idle, so they still generate AROs, and lose the ammunition or equipment used, if they declared the use of a Disposable weapon or piece of Equipment.
Yes, that is exactly what we are saying. What I'm asking is "what order do you do all those things in? Why can't I place the template and then work out what point I BS Attack from?" So, a Trooper Moves from position A to position C through B. Can I declare a BS Attack with a DTW, nominate the far enemy as the Main Target, place the template and then say "I attack from position B" or do I have to say "I attack from position B" and then place the template. The answer seems to be "the rules are largely silent on what order you need to do those things in, except that you need to declare the Main Target before placing the template."
I think we're getting caught up in the placing template when attack is declared part, it's the same as any BS attack with one exception which is you need to place the template when declaring so your opponent knows who if any is hit "The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack in order to determine if the Main Target is inside in the Area of Effect" That line implies you could miss with your template which means you must have to declare position of fire first otherwise you could only miss by simply not being in range at any point of your movement, I'm sure @ijw has the goods
"otherwise you could only miss by simply not being in range at any point of your movement" This is entirely plausibly the intent. It was certainly how it worked in N3. Where you fire from being a required detail at declaration is new in N4, how this addition affects DTWs is not clearly spelled out. Personally I lean to "placing a DTW is functionally the same as measuring range and in N4 you decide where you attack from prior to measuring range; therefore, you should decide where you attack from prior to placing the DTW" but that's very much an interpretation and I see no reason why it is necessarily the correct interpretation.
It seems like everyone is on the same song sheet, I don't remember it being an issue in N3, secondary targets being the source of debate, let's kick back and see if we get an official
It wasn't an issue in N3 because it was unquestionably permitted. But in N3 you were allowed to do the same thing with range measurement at Resolution so the whole context is different.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. The wording for when to place the template hasn't changed between N3 and N4. The difference was that in N3 any BS attack could effectively pick and choose the best range after measuring. This functionality was specifically removed in N4.
Yes, except CB didn't address the implications for DTWs. It's reasonable to assume that they intended to remove the ability for DTW attacks to pick and choose the best position to attack from. But - I think - we're all convinced that's an assumption not actually something that the rules tell us. Which is to say, we haven't been able to come to a definitive answer one way or the other. I think it's persuasive that you should choose the point you attack from and then place the template, but I don't think it's certain. So if I came across someone doing it the other way in the wild (ie they place the template and then determine where they shoot from) I'd probably permit it.
I'm telling you that the reason why it worked like it did in N3 wasn't because of what the rules for DTWs said, it was because of what the rules for BS Attack said. The rules for DTWs didn't need to be very precise in N3, it was enough to simply demand that the template be put down at some point before the next step in the sequence. As a result of this not being identified in the transition process we now have this situation of ambiguity. Even that said, in N3 it was assumed that the target was chosen before you put the template down, and I find it absurd that we're now arguing whether you need to pick a target before you place a template on the table to see if you can hit your target... It is, however, false to argue that the "lack of change" going from N3 to N4 is meaningful - because very clearly the rules that made it work without ambiguity in N3 were changed.
I have by the way added this as an urgent question, by the by. I can easily see this argument running wild enough that a shotgun-user would be allowed to place a template down (as a range-finding implement) before deciding to even shoot with DTW mode the way this argument is going - or even that placing templates down without even having a DTW...
We're not arguing that about whether you need to pick a target first: it's clear that you need to choose the Main Target before placing the template. Equally I'm not arguing that the "lack of change" is meaningful. I agree that the BS Attack changes from N3 to N4 are probably meaningful for DTWs. But I don't really think that it's strong enough to go to someone "nah you can't do that": and that's the problem I have, this is likely to come up unexpectedly in play and creates an unfun experience. I also think that it's absurd to suggest anyone would seriously argue that you can place the DTW down before deciding to use the DTW mode of a Shotgun: you need to use a DTW to be able to "place a Template". It's clear that there IS an order of operations in what you declare. The question is, what is that order. Personally I like this one (which is the order in the important box): 1. specify which Weapon will be used, 2. who the targets are, 3. where the Trooper shoots from, 4. how the Burst is divided, 5. etc [ie. placement of the template] It resolves this issue, is reflected by the rules and makes sense.
There's a few others who've participated in the conversation than you and I, and that argument has been made ;) And yeah, I do agree that ideally the template should be treated equivalent of a measurement in all respects, which would mean that you have to have two points to measure between.
Really? Wow. I thought it was just me and @QueensGambit arguing that maybe you can do it the N3 way. Mostly I don't want to tell someone who thinks they just did a really cool thing that it's not allowed when the rules are ambiguous.
Is it a cool thing to move a template around until you optimise target saturation, though? Yay... You managed to waste time until you got all three troops covered or got your opponent to give up just to get the game going... Well done... This 40k way of doing it has been annoying me since testing warmahordes (where the main target is placed along a central axis of the template)
This has really opened my eyes to the changes, I was quoting rules and interpreting without even thinking about the changes from N3, I haven't played for a year so until I read @Mahtamori comment about N3/N4 I didn't even think or remember it was different.... I get @inane.imp point now but it feels like this now falls under a muscle memory issue, new players won't remember using a template in that fashion so it's unlikely they would attempt to place a direct fire template before stating their position, previous players may instinctively go to but it feels counter to what the rules state for other methods of ranged attack, I agree with @inane.imp that the rule is ambiguous but the intent isnt, it could be fixed with 2 words " The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack" " The Template must be placed immediately after declaring the Attack" Sorry for just doubling down on the rules pasting and yes templates are the source of all evil in competitive play
Maybe this is why you feel strongly about this one? I think we disagree on which interpretation is likely to waste time. @inane.imp 's drawing perfectly captures the scenario I was trying to describe earlier. If the active player can choose template placement and shooting position simultaneously, their task is quick and easy. Just get out the template and check whether it can cover all three enemy models from any point along that 4" line - basically an instantaneous check. If they have to choose shooting position first, then they have to stop, try to mentally project the template onto the table, try to remember how big the template looks, think about the risk of shooting from too close vs. too far away, second-guess their decision, then identify a spot, put down a silhouette marker at that spot, and try the template from various points around the edge of the silhouette to see if they can get everyone in. While neither option would take an excruciatingly long time, the first option would certainly be faster IMO. All that's an aside since the correct interpretation of the rules doesn't depend on which option is faster. But it's why I have a mild preference for the first option and don't mind that it could go either way (though I agree that the second option is probably more likely), whereas @Mahtamori you seem to feel very strongly that it should be the second option.
What I'm saying isn't that the interpretation is "uncool" but that the situation where the interpretation is relevant has never produced "cool plays" and always "uncool plays". So er... cause and effect, right? Either interpretation aren't the cause of the uncoolness, the cause of it is players trying to target-optimise - it just happens to be the only time when this interpretation dispute is relevant. Given that they specifically removed this feature from all other forms* of BS Attacks, it seems odd that they would leave this ambiguity intentionally and odd that they would allow specifically and only DTWs to be able to do this. Also, I'm allergic to ambiguous rules ;) * Nearly. Speculative Fire has a similar, but somewhat different, issue.
Assuming you do have to choose your shooting position first, you still get to move the template around to find the best placement originating from that position. So it's still like spec fire in that respect. Fundamentally, that's why it doesn't seem weird to me that you might also be able to try it from multiple shooting positions. Anyway, I think we've exhausted all the rules arguments and at this point are just musing about it :-) I'm with @inane.imp - I would let my opponent do it, though I give it about 2:1 odds that it's not supposed to be allowed.
@Mahtamori this is still unresolved and was raised in a second location. Probably due for adding to the list? Edit: Derp, ignore me. Nothing to see here. Carry on your good work.
