If your trooper moves with first short skill , from which point he can declare attack with direct template weapons? From any point of his movement or just from the position there he declares attack?
Any position, due to all at once they're effectively considered to inhabit every part of the movement for the whole order.
Thanks! I was reading the wiki and somehow maybe misinterpreted that fraze: The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack in order to determine if the Main Target is inside in the Area of Effect and which Troopers and Game Elements (Markers, Deployable weapons or Equipment…) will be affected by the Attack, as this may influence their possible ARO, or second Short Skill of their Order.
Follow up, do you decide the position you attack from before or after placing the template (or can you decide in whatever order)? Ie. Do you go: "I attack from here, and... damn the template just misses." Or "Damn the template just misses from there, so I'll attack from here where it hits."
I decide from where I shoot and then I place It, if the template does not reach the target the attacks fails. If you have a trooper with more than 1 burst remember all the templates must be placed from the same point in the movement.
Given how templates work in the most practical sense, I don't think there's much room for the first one as long as the point in movement the trooper shoots from is the same in the second one.
Oh, then that's completely off. You have to declare what position you are shooting FROM as part of your BS Attack skill declaration. What part of the silhouette you put the blast focus in contact with from that point is impossible to regulate, though. https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#Order_Expenditure_Sequence IMPORTANT All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, Entire Order Skill or ARO must be specified when it is declared. (See FAQs & Errata.) And the FAQ: Q: Do you need to specify all details of a Skill when declaring it? For example where the target is for a BS Attack, or where the template is being placed for White Noise? A: Yes, with the exception of the target’s position, which is chosen in the Resolution step, before measuring Ranges. If the order of declaration is important, the active player chooses who declares first.
Yes - placing a Template happens simultaneously with deciding where you shoot from. It's a detail of the attack that's decided at declaration. "The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack " What I'm asking is during declaration do you place the template first or decide where to shoot from first or can you do whichever you want first. What order can you decide details of the attack?
Because you have to disclose all details of the skill as part of the declaration. Also, keep in mind that if you change your mind about the target you measure to or from (or both), you have effectively measured a distance using the template that you are not allowed to measure.
Sure, but the details of the skill include both what point the trooper is shooting from, and where the template is placed, right? So how do we know which to do first? Yeah, I've always played that you have to choose your target, then place the template, too. But what's the rules source/argument for that approach? The closest I can find is "The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack in order to determine if the Main Target is inside in the Area of Effect," which sort of implies that you already know who the Main Target is before you place the template. We know that, at least once you've picked the Main Target, you can move the template around to optimize your spot. Like, I say "I'm shooting my Chain Rifle at A," then place the template and check whether I want to try to hit B (who is to A's left) or C (who is to A's right). I don't have to sort of descend the template straight down and leave it at the first spot I try. I'm not sure it's clear whether the ability to check multiple template placements includes checking them from multiple shooting origin points, given that both origin point and template location are details that must be declared at the same step of the OES.
Relatively easy, ain't it? You can't place a template so that it touches two points without specifying which two points the template has to touch. Right? Do it without first specifying both and you're pre-measuring and strictly speaking cheating.
Sure you can. We already know that you can check multiple potential template positions and then choose the optimal one (subject to having first chosen the Main Target, probably). So, what's to stop you from checking multiple potential template positions and firing origins, then choosing them simultaneously? I suspect you're right in the result, but would be happier to see a convincing rules reason for it. The argument that the alternative is impossible doesn't make sense to me. And I don't think that "option X would be pre-measuring and therefore can't be correct" can ever work as a rules argument. The rule against pre-measuring isn't written anywhere in the ruleset. We infer it from the fact that the rules specify situations in which you can measure, which implies that you're not allowed to measure in other situations. So, in any situation where you're allowed to measure, by definition you can't be breaking the rule against pre-measuring. In this case, we know that some degree of "measuring" with the template is allowed - even if you're right that you choose firing position first, you can still "measure" with multiple template placements coming from that position. The question is, how much measuring is allowed? Whatever the answer is, then that amount of measuring is, by definition, not prohibited pre-measuring.
Nothing in the skill declaration process does that I can find (let me vent frustration over how difficult it is to find the rule that dictates that the template has to be placed on declaration, by the way), but in the pre-measuring thing. In general, IJW has on many occasions answered rules referring to that measuring is not allowed outside where the rules specifically instruct you what to measure and has also referred to other types of measuring (such as placing a silhouette marker on the table) to be technically pre-measuring <that's not allowed>. The only hard rule I can find with a reasonably quick search is below, which may seem like a suggestion if you're not familiar with the concept of permissive rules. There are of course some weird situations, primarily with short-range measurements, where this gets somewhat stupid - we're told to measure the Zone of Control of all units at step 6 (let me just measure up the 8" near this unit that's not at all involved in the order resolution), we're told to measure a mine's trigger area (I'll just sweep this 8.3" long template around this DropBear even if your trooper is no where near), and because template weapons have no fixed central line or similar there's very little in the rules that would prevent us from being completely truly honestly guv' cross-eyed with placing the template on the completely wrong side of the silhouette before correcting it to fish for further ranges. It's kind of the case that the rules for how to measure a bunch of things aren't as tight as necessary when you have a general ban on pre-measuring. But with the rules we have at hand and keeping in mind how the rules staff have answered what constitutes measuring in the past; you're strictly speaking not allowed to put implements on the table to get distances before you're told to measure and placing a template on the table without having both an attacker's point and the target's point declared would be running afoul of that rule. (And yes, I know that most people are probably very lax about formally declaring where the attack is from and where it is directed at, which generally speaking is fine when templates aren't used - if you're using a short range weapon you'll be understood to attack from the closest point possible and if it's a long range weapon for the situation you'll be targeting the furthest away possible.) https://infinitythewiki.com/Distances_and_Measurements REMEMBER As a general rule, the Skills that compose an Order must be declared before measuring (see the Order Expenditure Sequence).
I think we agree on this. You can't place a template or ruler until the rules allow you to place the template or ruler. We refer to placing a measuring implement when not allowed as "pre-measuring," although that's not a phrase that appears in the rules. When we say "you're not allowed to pre-measure," we mean "you're not allowed to place a measuring implement, except when the rules say you can place the measuring implement." But I don't see how that helps answer this question: The question is, "when are you allowed to place the template?" Specifically, "can you place the template (1) at the same time that you select your firing position, or (2) only after you select your firing position?" If the answer is (2), then placing the template while selecting firing position would not be allowed by the rules, and would therefore be pre-measuring. But if the answer is (1), then the rules would permit placing the template at that time, therefore doing so wouldn't be pre-measuring. I don't know which answer is correct (I suspect you're likely right that it's (2)), but the answer determines what would or wouldn't constitute pre-measuring, not the other way around.
I've always assumed that you pick the attacker's location and it's locked in before you can put down the template, but that's based on the phrase "...in order to determine if the Main Target is inside in the Area of Effect..." which seems predicated on the idea that you may have misjudged distance and failed to be close enough when you place the template. Allowing you to scoot along your first skill's movement path waving the template around to see where you can hit from would mean the only time that you could be expected to miss with the template is if you've misjudged distance to the target for the entirety of your movement path. I guess that could be the intent of the rules, but it really seems more like you're expected to declare your attacker position while eyeballing the distance, then put down the template(s) from that point to see what happens. I understand that this is more my personal impression, but AFAIK it's also the way I've always seen it played, so I feel pretty safe with treating it as the correct method of play. As with many other aspects of the game, more official examples—and especially official animated/video examples, since this game is experienced as a process over time—would be a big help in clarifying how we're "supposed" to play it.
I suppose the most likely time it'll come up is where you're trying to hit multiple targets as you approach. You want to shoot from far enough back that the spread will hit all your targets, but not so far back as to be out of range. It comes up so rarely that I can't honestly say that I recall which way I've seen it played. My instinct is that most players would jimmy it around to find the best spot from anywhere on the movement path - I can't recall ever seeing anyone ask their opponent to declare their shooting point first. But I could be wrong.
