Because the Tsyklon has a better gun and Pitchers? I mean, why even make that comparison, the two are very different?
tsyklon is single wound and no visibility mods, it is outclassed "but pitchers" makes a dent in low opportunity cost for guided argument
I think you're severely underestimating what a Feuerbach does and making a mistake comparing the two REMs as if they fill the same roles, and I have no clue what you're trying to say with "but pitchers".
I will break a surprise to you that might be unvelievable. Not all units serve the same role of "advance and overwhelm". Tsyklon DOES HAVE visibility "mods": 360º visor and Xvisor, which the Vostok does not. The first means planting the Tsyklon Feuerbach (I agree that the Spitfire version is quite surpassed by a carefully managed Vostok as an assault piece) in the middle of your Deployment Zone. The second means that the spitfire version in suppresive fire is a 360º turret that shoots 3 bullets at BS 12 up to 60cm (24', the Xvisor ignores the -3 of SF extreme range), and gets a bonus to Discover rolls (reducing the -3 to 0 up to 120cm/48', and from -6 to -3 onwards). Granted, the Feuerbach gets very little from an X-visor... but allows a short range (ZoC) mod of 0 instead of -3 for an AP+DA or EXP weapon. Now consider this: several factions have Parachutists that can spawn from the enemy's deployment zone. All factions have Combat Jumpers of one kind or another. And nomads have easier access to engineers (in some sectorials they are wildcards), alleviating the need for extra slots and "filler" cheerleaders in fireteams. This makes the Tsyklon Feuerbach the best ARO piece to have in a Core Fireteam, unless you need to spam Dodge (where the Riot Grrrls have no equal), specially combined with an EVO's Marksmanship to compensate for the lack of Multispectral Visors. And being in a Core means no Surprise Attack malus. As lone pieces, they are on par with Total Reaction bots, which have gotten a "buff" regarding their utility simply because you can't cover all angles, unless you have a 360º visor, and not all factions have that for defensive units. The vostok, on the other hand, is best served as part of an agile Haris able to provide some tactical support, at least for linkable one (I still think the wildcard status has been reversed... the Albedo profile is extremely situational in Nomads, now that there are H+ devices on all sectorials, so an unlinked Albedo Vostok is hard to justify).
It is a large base fusilier for 36 points with the only saving grace being the ability to drop to silhouette x behind cover after taking 2 wounds at once. No. Your defense against Duroc is templates and templates, Tsyklon either covers behind (where he excels) or watches ahead - where it will die fast. Overpaying that much MOSTLY for ability to throw pitchers (i.e. taking first turn for guided shenanigans when most missions benefit going second) is investing too much especially if you expect to be playing vs something resilient to guided and hacking.
A 36 point Fusilier that's Wildcard, can be buffed with Marksmanship, has 2 higher ARM and 6 higher BTS, offers mildly surprising melee competence where a Fusilier couldn't even hit their own hair with a pair of scissors, has a much larger but shorter silhouette, an extra UNC level, a gun that Fusiliers can't choose, a side equipment that Fusiliers can't get, can walk walls that Fusiliers can't, carries a repeater, and can be hacked. But yes, otherwise just an overpriced Fusilier. (I agree that it's overpriced for its actual gear by a small handful of points, mind you, I just find the comparison to Fusiliers funny and absurd. Going first shouldn't be dismissed as a bad idea, either, as there's a bunch of factions with a strong and quick alpha strike, particularly when playing a faction with eyeliner deep command structure and no marker state LT outside of Cybermask)
You're right. a Tsyklon is just a large base Fusilier with a 360 visor, x-visor, arm 3, bts 6, a feuerbach, climbing+, remote presence, and a pitcher. Also, a Dragao is just a large base Fusilier with BS 15, arm 8, 3 wounds, and an HRMC...
This is mostly a quibble since you'll never hear me say Nomads are anything but good at establishing their repeater network, but this is a point on which I disagree. Playing both factions, I think it's combined army that makes no sacrifices to fit repeater coverage into their list, since Bit and Kiss are a 21pt inclusion for two models who are already lifting your hacking game by being a very attractively statted KHD with upgrade:oblivion. Basically, you get your repeater coverage in Combined army through a cheap model you were already taking to round out your hacking presence. By comparison, with the exception of Jazz in Corregidor, Nomads tend to need to give up valuable troop slots or make SWC compromises to accommodate their pitcher game. Nothing unbearable - even the Tsyklon, which gets a mixed wrap depending on who you talk to (see above) but who I'd personally bat for - but not quite as carelessly easy as it is for Combined Army.
There's a big difference between an attack piece and a fire support and utility piece. The fuerbach tsyklon's range bands (incl. on it's pitchers) synergise much better with the role of a weapon and utility platform embedded in a static core link than the Vostok does. A Vostok wants to advance and manoeuvre to compensate for its much more limited 24" range bands, which imposes a big risk tradeoff if you want to drag a full core link into the midfield just for +3 BS. The Vostok is also less attractive generally after it's points fix. It's a fairly balanced model now. I might be weird but in vanilla I've actually been using the red fury profile more than the Mimetism -6 Mk12.
You forgot the obligatory Morans, but yes out side of vanilla and CJC Nomads actually needs to make significant compromises to fit in a pitcher platform. Especially in TJC where it is often at the cost of a useful specialist, a strike piece, some other support piece, or using up AVA on a unit you would prefer to using on another profile. As for BJC, it is often at the cost of other defensive pieces (Tsyklon), eating ava on units profiles that don't really do anything when you would prefer taking more useful profiles (Zeros), on expensive solo pieces (Custodier), or somewhat unreliable (Moderator). Though I will admit the moderator pitcher is fairly useful for setting up defensive repeater on your side of the table for minimal points investment. There is a few more considerations when comparing to the RG, such as being able to take a second hit before being rendered combat ineffective, denial of cover armour (which is even more meaningful with the additional +1 dam baseline) and potential splash damage, the RG is cheaper which is significant if you need to start shaving points to allow for other things. However the Feuerbach is superior to the ML so there is that to consider. As for TJC, well there's this thing I believe is called a Grenzer.... Though there is something to be said for the lack of a visor as a bonus when compared to the other options since it can't get screwed by albedo/white noise shenanigans which are becoming more popular than they already were. Though the addition of MM via EVO is largely a moot point as it is predicated on you going first to put it up, meaning it's irrelevant for the first round of defense and you hope it is still there come your turn or you are taking your defensive lynchpin essentially out of the game for that round if you elect to hide it.
I was mostly thinking in terms of offensive network projection, but yep, Morans can totally do that too if you're prepared to risk them.
Ah, fair, I confused it for more general repeater network projection. But I have on occasion either made the infiltration roll or just ran one through a hole in the opponent's defensive line to set it up somewhere incredibly irritating, watching someone try and figure out if they dodge the koala or f2f the incoming hack is always entertaining (though opposing the hack is often the correct response).
Can't say I'm going to see eye to eye with someone who thinks a Tsyklon is a better ARO piece than a Riot ML except for dodging (or that as lone pieces they areon par with TR bots, who *also* have 360 visors). Tsyklon is great *if* you go first in sectorial (and have a few other things that synergise with it but also pile on the pts). It's decent still going second but not as good value as the Riot ML IMHO. More like a swing piece.
Nope. It's saturation, specially when he "lands", because those are free shots. In that regard, having a 360º Visor-equipped piece means the enemy NEEDS to take said piece out before bringing Duroc, and while the Total Reaction bot can actually kill him in a single ARO (due to potentially 5 wounds, since Total Inmunity doesn't grant inmunity to crits), it's easier to kill for the enemy applying a -12 (range, cover, smoke...), something the Core-d Tsyklon is inmunne to. You insist focusing on a single aspect of the troop and discarding each as "insuffcient", because it's too little for 36pts. Now look at all together. The threat projection is smaller, and you still need to carry hackers to make use of said pitcher network, which tend to be subpar or infiltrators... Besides, the same could be said about Scylla (granted, she doesn't have a repeater option in her bots, and can't go cybermask, but she has her own tinbot as ECM hacking, and can attack other hackers regardless of her being able to mark, or buff remotes). On the other hand, Nomads can fit Jazz with a Brigada or an EVAder for a Firewall Tinbot, place the Tsyklon, and is a nº2... for 19pts, and able to place White Noise (I'd say Jazz is better compared with the Kerr Nau, frankly). As for linking pitchers... Tunguska is quite limited, yeah, but Bakunin so-so with the Custodiers, and the Moderators (and since you can fit Riot Grrls in a Core of Moderators, it's possible to have a ML Riot + Pitcher Moderator in the same fireteam for +1pt over the regular one). Plus, take into account that the Tsyklon can be buffed, so having an EVO remote can be useful, since you can use it to both buff the Tsyklon and refresh his consumables. But my point was more about how Nomads build most lists with hacking as a vertebral part without giving up much, while other armies don't. Bit & Kiss shows up sometimes, sure, but Jazz shows everytime (since Corregidor is in such a nice place, Tunguska is "special" when it comes to their lists, and Bakunin has been waiting for a deep revision since N2 went out...) be it linked, or with "5 points 1 Regular Order" Kiss (who is also a repeater and carries EM mines) Well, Bakunin will fit 3 Zeros, and I bet at least one, if not 2, carry the deployable repeater because of the EM Mines... ^^U. Also, a defensive Core of Moderators with some Riot Grrls ML means you can upgrade a base moderator to pitcher... unless you were using moderators as Lts to play the "find the Lt" game, that is. Tunguska is quite screwed there, I agree, but can compensate with the Pandas of the Heckler (which is not truly autoinclude, frankly... the Emarat can be used more times, after all), and Mary Problems provides a moira-like aggresive kit (as in fragile, but hits hard). Like the Grenzer, the Riots suffer from having all MSV1, so Albedo and WN can give them problems (and an enemy Albedo unit can lock your RG if it can be positioned so it sees them but no other member of their group sees it if you go first). Aside from that, Supportware gives the Tsyklon better shoot against enemies in cover, while the Riots negate the ARM bonus from cover with the template. I agree the Tsyklon is a litte overpriced to N4, however. You can take both, of course, because of the WN. But Mary Problems & koala heckler are alternatives to Tsyklon feuerbach. The Tsyklon offers a wider toolbox. The riot, only standing power (so to speak) by dodging what she can't shoot back, and shooting an EXP template (locking Haris easily). She can be killed (as in removed from the table) easier than a remote, however, because you need to cause 3 wounds in a single attack to the remote, or it goes prone, while the Riot can take a wound and then she's like any MI, in that 2 wounds kill her for good. The TR can't link => no sixth sense => smoke combo/cover from extreme range surprise attack can force it to a -12 to BS, while the tsyklon suffers a -3 (cover) and up to -6 (mimetism) with a +3 (Fireteam Core), and B2 (because Core). So 2 dice at 6 (at worst) against only having dodge (and the Tsyklon can dodge if the enemy is out of range, but the TR is there too since their max range is the same in reach, if not in mods). Assuming you play Bakunin, I'd play a Tsyklon with a ML Riot in a core, instead 2 RG ML (unless, as it was said before, I could not afford the extra 4 points). Being able to place a clockmaker and avicenna in the same Fireteam gives me the slots if I need those.
Yes I agree. You didn't say that though, you said 'This makes the Tsyklon Feuerbach the best ARO piece to have in a Core Fireteam, unless you need to spam Dodge'. The Tsyklon is pretty good, better than the sum of its parts if you get to use them all before it's dead. Which you may not if you don't go first. The Riot Grrl takes just as many wounds to put down, but before you get an active turn is harder to put down AND more dangerous, and has the option to choose to prone after taking a wound often. That's not a disadvantage! Though to be fair Courage gives the REM that option sometimes when the Riot doesn't if it gets hit and not wounded. It's not fair to say the Tsyklon is the best ARO IMHO, although like you I would often take both. The relevant part to this thread though, is that if you don't go first The Tsyklon plus all the things to make it work nicely in a guided list (Tsyklon + multiple Hackers + Guided bot + prob EVO = prob Clockmaker) are a not insignificant cost for something that is not stopping an alpha strike as a whole like other things could. It eats most of your SWC on a one trick, disruptable and not entirely reliable (Spotlight is 1 die vs 1 die Reset) offence which might kill a key trooper or 2 but won't kill a lot of enemy models like other things could. As opposed to say, just taking an Avatar and smashing everything it sees, or Ko Dali + Speculo and smoke shooting things that can't shoot back after ZOC ARO baiting either. The idea that it is a trivial inclusion isn't true, and therefore seems something that would be said by people who haven't played it and probably haven't figured out how to play against it. Just like when players new to Impersonation or Total Reaction or AD complain they are OP before they learn to properly mitigate them. Even just the 1.5 SWC on the guided bot isn't trivial when it could be spent on a Riot Grrl ML which can actually effectively shield you from harm in reactive. I'm not saying the balance or playability of Guided could not be improved. I'm just saying the discussion of it is one of many that is prone to hyperbole by taking individual things out of context and acting like they are the whole context. Again, largely I agree (in fact I think the core linked Tsyklon is a better ARO piece than the TR bot - ability to more freely place it away from your link aside). But again it is not what you said. You said it 'As lone pieces, they are on par with Total Reaction bots,'. As lone pieces, they are not linked. You also said not all factions have 360 visors, but all factions with the default TR HMG bots do at least, and that includes all factions with Tsyklons.
Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding this - it reads like you're saying combined army hackers are subpar? I think I'm misreading this somehow.
In summary, jumping in late to the conversation: I think spotlight plus guided is oppressive and creates frustrating and negative experiences. Even just spotlight without guided in a solid repeater network is frustrating to deal with. I don't know that its OP, but it certainly because a focus of countering a list a dictates your opponent's approach to the game more than just about anything else. It provides easy low to no-risk setup and employment to destroy expensive targets without much reprisal. There is functionally no counter to deploying repeaters or pitchers. These are some thoughts I have collected (mostly stolen as they have largely noted above already) Make spotlight a -3 penalty to the user. Then it becomes a strategy choice instead of the go-to program to annoy and frustrate your opponent. Limit guided to +3 (like everything else that is targeted) instead of the random +6. Allow reset as an opposed ARO to a guided attack (or speculative attack while targeted), which would already be at a -3 for targeted, so no further penalty would be needed. After all, if you are able to clear the targeted state, the missile will have a tough time finding you. Allow fairy dust to start active when going second, command token expenditure or not. Allow tinbots and firewalls to apply to guided attacks. Make guided ammo disposable 2. It can be reloaded with baggage, and this adds an order tax to an effect that otherwise requires zero risk. Allow AROs against placed repeaters and pitchers. (This or disposable are my least favored options.) Honestly, if the first three happened, I feel like the game would be better for it. Guided would still be solid for mitigating risk against TAGs. Spotlight could still be used to hit unhackable rambo units to slow them down or make their job a little harder to accomplish. It would also mean that guided wouldn't just become the defining factor of a match where it is present with a good repeater network.
That I did, your point being? The Riot Grrrl can dodge at 16, the Tsyklon does it at 10. Not counting range bands, the RG shoots at 13 (+3 Core, can ignore Mimetism -3 and shoot through smoke at 10 unless she's returning fire), the Tsyklon at 12 (+3 Core, can ignore cover if EVO applies supportware, and can fire the Feuerbach in 360º with no negative modifiers at any range). Yes, she can drop if she suffers a single wound... thus negating her value as an ARO piece (conceding to the enemy) and never getting back to 2 wounds, being forever 1 wound from KO and 2 wounds from Dead. The Tsyklon can take 2 wounds and remain on the table (but KO), and brought back to full health with a single roll, thus having more staying power than a wounded Riot Grrrl (at the cost of 2 orders in the next turn, of course). Both take 3 wounds to get killed, sure, but not all wounds get there equally, allowing the Tsyklon to stay as an ARO until he goes down... for repairs. Bottom line, the situation you propose (going prone after suffering a single wound) is simply... against the value of the Riot Grrrl. Talking about different topics. ASIDE from the TR which everyone has (and frankly, needing to specify this makes me think you know you are out of arguments and try to grasp at straws... or any fine print you can think of, since we all know which REMotes are common to all factions: 7pts flash pulse bots, baggage bots -a little different for the CA-, 16-17pts specialist bots, TR bots, Smart ML bots, servants...), troops with 360º you leave in your DZ are not precisely a dime a dozen. Aside from Thorakitai, that is (and maaaaaaybe Sekban, but... 20+pts), which were what I had in mind. Subpar is to have to move the hacker from your DZ forward. Regarding hacking, my opinion is that the CA has the same problem Aleph has, namely few cheap hacking options (yeah, I know: Bit, Apsara, proxy mk1, then go over 20 for Danavas, proxymk2, etc...), because most hackers are multipurpose (kerr nau, for example, is a shooter with a plasma rifle, a KHD with White Noise, a pitcher, and goes into any fireteam on a sectorial with tons of offensive options... that sinergize with his hacking the same as in vanilla, aside from the 6th sense he might get). Nomads, on the other hand, have several hacking specialists that might get complementing gear/skills (Zoe, being an engineer on top of a hacker, WIP15 with Zero Pain, for 25pts; Mary Problems having 2 hacking devices with upgrades, bonus to dodge and mim-6, and an EM template; Jazz, with the same cost of a securitate Hacker and much better BTS and melee options, the classic Interventors -essentially an alguacile with H+, WIP 15 and BTS9-, etc...), plus 6 different troops with pitcher, the fastpandas (they are the only faction with this, I think), 12 troops with repeaters, and 7 troops with deployable repeaters. CA has 3 repeaters (baggage, flash pulse bot, and specialist bot), two and a half pitcher (kerr nau and Bit & Kiss), and one and a half deployable repeater (which are Bit + Kiss if she has access to Cybermask, essentially). My point is that you can FtF a single hacker if you get inside the hacker's ZoC, OR you get to FtF EVERY enemy hacker if you activate inside an enemy repeater (that is, pitcher). I find a much more terrifying prospect the latter than the former, frankly, because of saturation.
Vostoks were released at around 36-38 points per model for the Mk 12 Mim -6 version. That is now 44 points, cant remember when it went up though but I think only a couple of weeks after release.
