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Starting Ariadna Kosmo or USARF?

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by Duront, Apr 26, 2021.

  1. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    I guess it's important to note here that this wasn't always the case - the meta that introduced me to the game, late N2 early N3, was playing YAMS and 20x20 primarily, and ITS rarely. When I moved to another meta, 2018-19 time frame, it was 50% ITS, 50% Recon+.

    Without any empirical data (or claiming to have any), I'd wager that the majority of people do play ITS today, which speaks well for the growth of the game. On the other hand, many older metas recognize that it's not the only way to play the game, and many regard it as a weak point in the overall Infinity ecosystem, which is why you see people continuing to design alternative missions today.

    To the point of USARF, the notion that USARF sucks because it sucks at ITS is just as fair a criticism of ITS as it is of USARF.

    I don't play USARF, but comparing TAK and Kosmoflot...TAK plays a lot more like a Sectorial whereas Kosmoflot plays more unique, but using similar mechanics to vanilla. TAK has shockingly little Infiltration, but a ton of FD, and encourages players to use the usual Line Troopers + SWC Wildcard (Line Kazaks and a Vet Kazak) to dicedick everything into the ground during your active turn. TAK does the long-ranged dice game very well (e.g. Tankhunters, Spetsnaz, Vets).

    Kosmoflot otoh has a lot more regular Infiltration units, and has more interesting Fireteams, but also emphasizes much shorter ranged weapons. There aren't that many guys in Kosmoflot worth bringing with HMGs, so it definitely emphasizes closer-ranged engagements.
     
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  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    The original claim by @fatherboxx was that "we shouldn't take non-ITS players seriously" and it's just insulting and dismissive of, even if not majority, a huge chunk of the community who don't bother with specific ITS missions.

    The arrogance and self-importance of some of the competetive players is just astounding.
     
  3. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    No, my dude, I don't need a citation for a challenge of an initial claim. The onus of proof lies on the initial claimant.
     
  4. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    so no. Gotcha.
     
  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Yikes
     
  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    That would still need a citation. This claims that a minority of players play ITS and I challenge that. This claim needs to have some statistical underpinning or it's just making stuff up on the go.

    Custom missions are a set of rules:
    - the existence of which people need to take time to create in the first place
    - people need to have deep knowledge of structure as to understand how to make a mission
    - people need to be able to ble able to find as a separate document (on a non-official website)
    - people need to care about enough to download
    people need to care about enough to actually use in their beer & pretzel games
    - even if they do, people need to care enough about using custom missions over official missions
    - not to mention people who have started with Code One and are already used to downloading stuff from the official website

    Ergo, because of those limiting factors alone, players of N4 custom missions will have to be the minority rather than the majority of all community. QED.


    Also, I don't need to provide any citation to challenge this claim, the onus of proof lies in on the claimant.
     
    #26 Diphoration, Apr 28, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
  7. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    I love USARF, and I find them to be in a great place in N4, including from a competitive standpoint. People here complain mostly about the 15 order cap preventing 16-20 order lists., which I never considered to be the most effective way to play USARF. As a result, they're having to adapt their play styles to the new edition, and are not happy about it.

    That said, I would suggest Kosmoflot. Kosmo is a much better place to segue into vanilla Ariadna from, and is going to be getting a lot of new sculpts and attention. They have more of the tools that Ariadna is known for, and supports a wider variety of play styles. That all makes them a much more exciting army to collect.

    The main way to play USARF is board control. Even their cheapest ARO pieces can force the enemy to sink orders. They can litter the midfield with inexpensive camo units, or heavy flamethrowers, their bikes are damn good and rapidly redeploy where they need to be on the table. They can be incredibly irritating to play against, despite being fairly straight forward.

    Kosmoflot can play a few different ways it seems (I say that, because COVID has meant not seeing them much). They have access to some of the best Ariadna troops around, and really a wide variety of options. They can put down a lot of elite camouflage units with long range attacks, beat people up with warbands and space bears. The only thing they seem to lack is speed, very few models faster than 4-4, so they're going to be a little more dependent on deployment and moving during the game to maintain pace.
     
    #27 TheDiceAbide, Apr 28, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
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  8. Arkangel

    Arkangel Bringer of Justice, Avatar of Retribution

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    Well my League of 4 players use the ITS rules because it makes it simpler to play tournaments. There are 3 other Leagues of 4-6 players who also play at ITS rules, and when we gather for tournaments, obviously it’s ITS rules. Army doesn’t account for any play style EXCEPT ITS because that’s how your army builds are created. However, if you’ve ever set up an event, you get a choice to set one game up as “Free Play”. That’s open rules for whatever scenario you want to play and still give credit to your players.

    Talking with other players on this forum I’d be comfortable saying 90% run ITS rules for their games. Do I have hard data on that? No! Because there’s nothing that gathers data on all groups in play.


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  9. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    You're arguing against the wrong person. I agree with you.
     
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  10. Arkangel

    Arkangel Bringer of Justice, Avatar of Retribution

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    After looking over all of the opinions, here’s mine: if it’s in N4 Army feel free to play. I personally have a USAriadna force (USARF) and they’re pretty bad ass. Looking over Kosmoflot I’d love to try this one out. Obviously, you’d be using proxies until the minis are released and their list is a bit light (but how can you deny Bearpodes?) for my tastes, but the troops are serious heavy hitters, IMHO. So it’s a tough call. I’d give them a few tries with proxy models and then see how they feel. But I’d use my USARF models so if they suck you’ve got a decent force to play with [emoji16]


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  11. saint

    saint Charming, but irrational

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    ... Thats not what i was getting at, I was saying that except for the Mavericks (and Desperadoes, i forgot about them) USARF is on the slower end being largely MI with 4-2 mov. Which is also not correct anymore because i forgot Marauders got to be big boys now with 4-4 (haven't played Infinity in a bit, Drukhari go zoooom) and now its only Grunts that are stuck at 4-2; so disregard that entire segment play USARF 'Murica!
     
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  12. Arkangel

    Arkangel Bringer of Justice, Avatar of Retribution

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    Oh crap, Cthulhu363! My humblest of apologies and thanks for not going off on me. I obviously meant the other side. [emoji1751]


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  13. Arkangel

    Arkangel Bringer of Justice, Avatar of Retribution

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    I agree there are a small minority on both sides who - how did I put it in my miniature game seminar? - weren’t shown how to be good players, or ignore the spirit of the rules.

    Just to lay down my credentials, I’m the author of over seven WH40K books and do seminars (pre COVID days) on wargaming and how to be a good host and a better player.

    Back in the old days of science fiction wargaming there was nothing in the book (I’m looking at you 40k v1) about how to be a good player, handle arguments, and above all don’t be an arrogant ass to the rules! When I was learning about Infinity my FLGS hosted Infinity night every Thursday before COVID killed that (it’s slowly coming back) and I went around to each table to watch them play. I stayed a respectful distance and asked questions when appropriate. I saw a player using a Steel Phalanx army but he had these flower-looking things on the table behind a building all in a row. Without even thinking I asked what they were and even picked one up (not thinking obviously). They were old style repeater rods made of plastic. He became upset! Not because I handled one, it was because his opponent didn’t know he had them! It wasn’t hidden info, he just decided to not mention them.

    They were playing a modified scenario of Capture the Flag, with a terminal in the center and they needed to activate it, stay for three rounds, and have coverage from the terminal back to their set up area (hence the repeaters). Non-standard scenario. Others were using standard ones.

    My point is as I said at the beginning: you’re going to get nasty players from either side.


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  14. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Lol, you good. I figured. :+1:
     
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  15. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    Wow.... that was a lot of hypothetical posts to skip over.

    Anyway, USARF is great. They are older on the rules and probably won’t get a great deal of love anytime soon. I think they are still a very playable faction (I do better with them than TAK). There model line is virtually complete as well, so you can start collecting straight away.

    So really, you should buy USARF now, and then Kosmo later.
     
  16. Duront

    Duront Well-Known Member

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    Thank you everyone for your responses, weird arguement in the middle there aside.

    What is the big difference in playstyle between USARF and Kosmoflot?
    It seems like characters are maybe more important in Kosmoflot.
     
  17. Jukebox3113

    Jukebox3113 Highlander

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    USARF plays more defensively in my experiance. Forcing your opponent to waste orders on cheap units to get the mission done. As well as having a good amount of long range defensive weapons ie: MLs, HRLs, and Sniper Rifles. That being said Mavericks, Deaparados, Devil Dogs, and the Unknown Ranger have plenty of firepower to punch back with.

    Kosmoflot plays very aggressivly. Their sweet spot being 24" and below. They are the standard for "glass cannons". They hit like a truck on all fronts but are squishy like most Ariadna units with a few notable exceptions.

    So it really comes down to if you want to play more offensively or defensively. There are list building youtube videos out on both of these sectorials to give you ideas. Hope this helps.
     
    #37 Jukebox3113, May 9, 2021
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
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