Impersonation, MSV3 and discover

I think that the key here is that with MSV3 you "automatically passes [..] necessary WIP rolls". You're still declaring a skill that requires a roll, even if the roll is automatically a success.

 

Impersonation is canceled if: The Impersonation Marker declares an Attack or any Skill that requires a Roll.

From MSV3 rules: When declaring Discover against a target in the Camouflaged State, the user of this piece of Equipment automatically passes, without need for a Roll, any necessary WIP Rolls against that target. [my emphasis in both lines]

Probably not intended, but seems debatable. To me it seems like the discover roll isn't required and, since it's not required, doesn't cancel the impersonation state.

 

I agree that it's debatable. I'm gonna vote on the "they get revealed" side. Seems to me that the cancellation clause intends to categorize the skills themselves into "skills that require a roll" vs. "skills that don't require a roll." So Discover would be a skill that requires a roll, even though an MSV3 user will automatically pass that roll without requiring a roll (sort of contradictory language in the MSV3 rule, which I take to mean "you pass the required roll without the need to physically roll a die." So an auto-passed roll is still a roll.)

Otherwise, we get a weird middle case as well: what about a unit whose target number is 20 or more? e.g. a unit with Sensor trying to discover a camo(0) marker within 8" without cover. Or a Crane in a fireteam. Does it count as a skill that requires a roll, when you don't have to roll a die because any result would be a success?

Or, what if my camo marker declares Dodge, but then turns out to have been outside ZoC and LoF of the active trooper? Is Dodge now a skill that doesn't require a roll, since it's converted to Idle so I don't roll any dice?

 

There is also the more rules technical argument that Discover as a skill requires a roll whether or not a different skill allows you to skip rolling.

 

I think the main purpose of this sentence is that since you will automatically pass, you will not need the (formalities) roll.
You can argue that if your SV is 20 or higher you will automatically pass, but you still roll it. Say a PH20 Dodge, it would be pointless to roll, but by game system a die will be rolled.

Maybe this makes more sense if you factor in Crits. Even if Asura would automatically pass with WIP15, rolling a die and "passing" on a 17 (because automatic) or passing on a 15 (a crit) would be different.

Yes, crits are pointless for Discover, but the game operates under the same system throughout all skill & equipment rules. Therefore, I think they just added that not to make weird d17 passes on wip15 a thing. They just say: skip the technicalities.

But for all purposes and intents a roll was indeed declared and went through.

 

It seems likely that it was intended for any discover attempt to break any marker state. However, RAW MSV3 seems to create an exception by explicitly saying the roll isn't required and therefor avoids the cancelation clause under impersonation state. Again: Impersonation is canceled if you declare a skill that requires a roll. MSV3 explicitly says you can discover without a roll. This is different from other skills where you're guaranteed to pass a check or hit (e.g. when you're rolling on a 23), because there's no exception text for those skills or equipment which explicitly say you don't need to make a roll. We have lots of rules that create exceptions for skills, so this may just be another one (that only affects one model in the game IIRC).

 

Nope. Not needing to roll doesn’t stop it being a roll. See, for example, the extreme modifiers rules:
Negative MODs can sometimes cause the Success Value to drop below 1 for an action. In these cases, the player does not roll the dice, and the Roll is an automatic failure.

That’s the same sort of situation as MSV3. It’s still a skill that requires a roll, whether you rolled for it or not.

 

This also explicitly calls out whether you need to roll a die or not.

Discover is the skill that requires a roll. However, MSV3 explicitly says that you don't need to roll.

Likely semantic, but MSV3 says a roll isn't required to discover. Impersonation state says it's canceled when a roll is required...

 

The Impersonation Marker declares an Attack or any Skill that requires a Roll.
Asura is declaring a Skill that require the Roll, but later during performing the Skill her equipment change that.

 

In this case, the Asura is declaring a skill that does not require a roll per her equipment rules. The equipment creates an exception.

More generally, I get the argument and would play it that way (if it ever came up). I just think it seems debatable. Since I seem to be the only one trying to advocate for the asuras to have this edge case, I think I'll step out unless IJW/CB want to clarify it further.

 

I think RAW you are actually probably right but its probably not the intention and people are finding ways to read it how they think it should be.

Which is actually a pity because MSV3 would be better balanced for cost on the platforms it's on if it did work that way vs Impersonation.