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E/M can turn deployable repeater off only while the later in your pockets

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zhōu Yú, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. Zhōu Yú

    Zhōu Yú Member

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    Deployable repeater is a Comms equipment and If the bearer got isolated as result of E/M ammunition it turns off - looks wonderful.
    However, as soon as it was deployed, being hit by e/m template or even direct attack from e/mitter would not affect it, becouse RAW nither E/M do something with deployed munnition, but isolate, nor Isolate could affect something but Trooper (which repeater obviously is not)


    ISOLATED
    Activation
    • The Trooper suffered a successful Attack or Effect using an Ammunition, or a game condition or Scenario Special Rule, capable of causing this state.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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  3. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    If an isolated model places a repeater, does the repeater still work? Is it no longer disabled when deployed?

    edit: spelling!
     
    #3 Methuselah, Apr 22, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The Deployable Repeater equipment is disabled and can not be used if you are Isolated
     
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  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Hmm. You're declaring the use of the Place Deployable skill, not the use of the equipment. I'm not sure being Isolated would stop you.
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarify something that may be prompting, at least part of, the question: Profiles with Deployable Repeaters do not necessarily have Repeaters themselves. Isolating a trooper with a Repeater turns off that piece of equipment, but I'm not so sure it does anything to a Deployable Repeater that hasn't yet been deployed.
     
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  7. Zhōu Yú

    Zhōu Yú Member

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    Isolated State turns off any comms equipment - both usual and deployable repeater are comms equipment, so ISOLATE should turn off both
     
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Specifically, "While in Isolated State all the Trooper's Hacking Programs, Skills and pieces of Equipment with the Comms Attack or Comms Equipment Labels or Traits (Hacking Device, Repeater...) are disabled."

    The word "disabled" isn't defined in the rules. It's not at all clear to me whether trooper would be unable to declare the Place Deployable skill to place a deployable that is currently "disabled."

    If the trooper can place the Deployable Repeater, then the repeater would definitely work normally once it's on the table. Once placed, a deployable weapon or piece of equipment becomes "an element independent of its carrier," so its functioning would no longer be tied to the state of the trooper that originally placed it (just like a mine still works if the trooper that placed it becomes Dead). "Disabled" isn't a state, so it wouldn't be possible to place the repeater on the table in a disabled state.

    In short, the question turns on whether the Place Deployable skill can be used to place a piece of equipment that's currently "disabled." Given that the word "disabled" is undefined, I doubt this one can be figured out without an answer from the Rules Team.
     
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  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like QueensGambit beat me to it...
     
  10. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure ijw meant that deployed, on the table, Deployable Equipment, can be affected by game state as they are game element.

    It is very different than saying that game elements that are not yet deployed can receive Game States (like Targeted, Isolated, Disabled).
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The word "disabled" is not capitalized, so use the dictionary definition. You know, similar to "have no effect" in "Automatic Special Skills and Automatic Equipment have no effect while Unconscious"

    Note that whether the item is a deployable weapon or a skill like hacking program shouldn't matter. If "disabled" doesn't prevent you from using Deployable Repeater item together with Place Deployable skill, then neither will Isolated prevent a Mutta from using their Jammer nor will it prevent a hacker from using Oblivion.
     
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  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    That's a bit of a stretch. One uses a Jammer by attacking with it, and the Oblivion program by hacking with it. One uses a Deployable Repeater by hacking through it.

    Does placing a Deployable Repeater on the table with the Place Deployable skill also constitute "using" it? Maybe. If the Deployable Repeater is "disabled," does that prevent you from "using" it in that way? Maybe. But I don't think it's nearly as clear as you do, and I don't think the comparison with a jammer or hacking program provides the answer. You use those items in your hand, you don't place them on the table and then use them once they're there.
     
  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    If I understand the argument @Mahtamori is making, it's that those are examples* of where the skill is one degree removed from the thing that is affected by ISO. You use the BS Attack skill (not affected) to attack with a Jammer (affected). *The hacking example, however, is not... since both the Hacking Device and the "skill" Oblivion have the Comms label and would be disabled when ISO.

    ... so maybe I'm misunderstanding.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that Place Deployable will not place a Deployable Repeater Token (it'll only place an item token that is not defined by the Place Deployable skill) on the table without also using the Deployable Repeater skill's effects. If those effects do nothing, are disabled, have no effect, or any other synonym, you will not be able to place a Deployable Repeater Token.
    This is not the same situation as Trinity targeting a hacker where it doesn't matter if the hacker skill is functional or not, only if it is present.
     
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  15. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Not sure that's the case. The Requirement for Place Deployable is that the trooper has to "Have a Weapon or piece of Equipment with the Deployable Label." The Requirement is met, unless being "disabled" turns off the deployable repeater's Labels. And maybe it does! But that seems far from certain.

    If you meet the Requirement, then you declare the skill and go to its Effects, which say "Allows the user to place a Token on the game table to represent the Weapon or the piece of Equipment." The only possible referent for "the" is the weapon or piece of equipment with the deployable label identified in the Requirement. In other words, if you have a weapon or piece of equipment with the Deployable label, then the Place Deployable skill lets you place that weapon or piece of equipment.

    It's true that the Effects of Deployable Repeater say "When the player declares the Place Deployable Common Skill, the Trooper places a Deployable Repeater Token on the game table," but that seems to be redundant. Even if the line didn't exist, the text of the Place Deployable skill would be sufficient to allow you to deploy the repeater since it has the Deployable label.

    In fact, although most deployable weapons mention at least something in their Effects about deploying them, the Dazer doesn't. But we can probably agree that you can deploy a Dazer with the Place Deployable skill, simply because it has the Deployable label.

    That's a good analogy... I think it might be. Here's maybe an even closer analogy: if the Hacker skill is disabled because the hacker is Isolated, the hacker can't declare hacking programs. But he can still declare other skills which Require that he have the Hacker skill, such as Hack Consoles.

    In the same way, arguably the Isolated trooper can declare the Place Deployable skill, since that skill only Requires that he have the deployable repeater, and doesn't Require that any of the deployable repeater's Effects are working.


    But I'm not trying to persuade you that it works that way; only that it's unknown which way it works. It may be that being "disabled" does disable the Deployable Label, such that the repeater can't be deployed.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What I'm saying is that there is nothing in Place Deployable which dictates what Marker, Model or Token you place with the skill. Nothing. You can say that you can use Place Deployable when your Deployable Repeater skill is disabled, I agree that there's nothing in the skill that prevents you from declaring the Place Deployable skill, but what I'm saying is that with Deployable Repeater not having an effect, you do not have any rule that allows you to place a Deployable Repeater Token on the table.
    Arguing that you can is, and I realise this has been thrown around in gross error on the forums a lot lately, arguing in bad faith because you know the various meanings of the word disabled enough to be able to properly deduce what the rules are conveying. Additionally, we have several documented cases where a member of the rules team specifically makes a distinction between a capitalized word and a non-capitalized word when one is a game term and when it is not a game term respectively. I think that alone should be enough to conclusively say whether "disabled" mean something.
    The absurd angle is that otherwise CB has to put the Miriam Webster Dictionary in the appendix or we'll doubt just about any word in the rules. (For example, let's take something that isn't necessarily an obvious word to all English speakers; "employ". Not defined anywhere, but you can't declare a BS Attack without basic understanding of what 'employing' the BS Attribute or a BS Weapon would mean. Another example that drives the absurd angle even further is "are we sure that the word CANNOT actually does something in the rules?")
     
  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    First of all, what the hell, man? Bad faith? You know better than that. We both post a lot on the rules forums exploring different interpretations, and we both know that we do it for the purpose of advancing the interpretation of the rules. This sort of accusation gets thrown around by assholes who think they're smarter than everyone else, but that's not you. So please dial that back.

    Ok, so that out of the way, I feel like we may be going in circles a bit. My argument in the previous post was that the Place Deployable rule does in fact allow you to place any weapon or piece of equipment (I'll collectively say "item") on the table, provided that (1) the trooper has the item, and (2) the item has the Deployable label. Do you disagree with the reasoning in that post, and why? And if you're right, how can the Place Deployable skill ever be used to place a Dazer?

    The dictionary definition of "disabled" isn't in doubt, but I don't think it helps in determining whether a disabled Deployable Repeater can be placed on the table. If I tell you my cellphone is disabled, you know from the definition of "disabled" that if you try to call me, I won't be able to answer. But I don't think you would conclude that I'm unable to leave my cellphone on the floor and walk away.
     
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  18. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Great example, since it bites you in the knees.

    Leave your disabled cellphone on the floor and walk away, why are expecting there to be a working cellphone (or cellphone marker) there? So there’s no reason the rules would let you do it—it produces no game result.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I stand by that, but likely not in the way you seem to have taken it. What I mean is that during a game to argue that "disabled" has no meaning or being undefined in order to place an item is in bad faith, I don't mean to imply that you are arguing in bad faith here. Yeah, it's a bit laboured, but the difference is that we traditionally pick the rules apart to see when they break here while we should strive to make them work while playing.

    So please do have my apology if it came across as calling your arguments here in bad faith. And I can totally see that I failed to properly formulate my thoughts on it, so that really is on me. Sorry.

    Now, the problem with comparing to a real life physical object like a disabled cell phone is that real life doesn't have the abstraction or limitations that a game does. For example, if you left your cell phone on the floor like that, what's preventing me from picking it up? My Fiday can't do that to your Spektr's Deployable Repeater. Ever. My Ghulam is even going to have problems hitting that stationary inert object with a rifle butt.
    So you've placed a disabled Deployable Repeater on the floor. That's great. Is it turned on? Is it safe from manipulation? Does the friend or foe system work so it doesn't zap the wrong someone picking it up? This is what I say with that I do not think that technically the Place Deployable skill is barred from working, just that there is no rule to allow you to place a specific token. You just put something down that's got no effect. Like a broken cell phone.
     
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  20. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Which brings us right back to the start of the conversation:

    I'm in in Isolated state, which means that all my equipment with the Comms Equipment label, including my cellphone, is disabled. But I, not my phone, am in the Isolated state.

    I deploy my phone and walk away. I remain in the Isolated state, but my phone is no longer my equipment - it's an element independent of me. So my Isolated state no longer affects it.

    The best argument to the contrary is that when the equipment is disabled, its Deployable label is disabled, so it can't be used by the Place Deployable skill which requires equipment to have that label. That would be a perfectly reasonable result, but whether it's correct, the rules don't tell us.
     
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