In order to not derail the news thread, I've created this one to pick up the conversation, because I think that this is a topic that warrants discussion in light of the new releases. Thing is, that is not at all what CB is doing. They are merely using the same name for a fictional entity that happens have a similar role within the military structure of a fictional faction in a fictional universe. Also, if you read the fluff in the BoW video regarding the Kempeitai, you will find that they are very much portrayed as ruthless and authoritarian, something that is actually kongruent with the real-world example.
Oh boy. Okay, first and foremost, do you even know what the Kempeitai did and how what they have to do in the fluff in order to live up to the vilification necessary to not diminish the organisation's and their individual's crimes against humanity? Ruthless doesn't cut it. Second of all, why do you feel you need to ask this? Like at all? It should be enough that people are uncomfortable that war criminals are being used so blatantly that you shouldn't have to question their motives.
I have to ask this because I find your proposition to be, frankly, ridiculous. I also find it interesting to explore other people's opinions (hence my being in this forum). @ topic: The way I see it, it is entirely irrelevant what atrocities the real-world kempetai commited, because the Infinity Kempetai are not the same and neither are CB condoning any of their crimes by using their name.
Shrug, Its like if the Hexa were actually called the Gestapo or Commisars I get why people will be offended (And hells, I sympathise strongly to some extent), however at the same time this is a fantasy setting and the name would have been chosen to deliberately allude to the actual historical Kempetai in a bad light. They arent nice people, not in the background nor in the way they are built. As Carlos has said, they are political officers, japanese commissars, thats not really sunshine and lolipops. Finally it is a fantasy setting and one which draws heavily on actual history, theres a huge range of units that will be offensive to someone under some circumstances, they are welcome to being offended, Ive got no problem with that, and also have no problem with them then choosing not to be involved in the game.
Replace Kempeitai with Tutonic Knights, Hassasins, Jannisarys, or any of the other units based on historical organisations and you’ll largely find the same applies. I doubt you can find a “clean” name with which to call any Infinity unit, everyone’s got dirty hands in war.
The Irony is, that the unit which, in setting is probably one of the nastiest dirtiest and closest to real world secret police parallels uses the made up name (See aforementioned Hexa)
Context is everything. If Infinity unit would have a connection to the historical one in anything but name, one could argue CB is whitewashing the war crimes. As it stands, not really. It's a game, it draws heavily from historical motives as others pointed out, it's bound to include some questionable choices. In a similar way there's no shortage of people playing Germans in WW2 games, but I'm sure we'd all draw a line at playing a Concentration Camp manager.
Q: Is the name "Kempeitai" insensitive? A: Yes Supplementary Q: Is it CB's job to make sure their units have sensitive names? A: No Another supplementary Q: Will being insensitive have consequences that compromise CB's ability to do their job? A: Maybe. I hate the Kampeitai pricks but bought and use them because COC is so good in JSA (You bet I used his LT order to try and get him killed on turn 3 though). Here's the thing, even I have a limit of bad taste. If I have to read fiction in uprising about gallant Kampetai shielding Japanese women and children from wave after wave of Chinese bully rapists as Kuraimuroi falls, I'll have to question the motives of the writer and I will make sure everyone is as uncomfortable about it as I am, probably until I have found someone to start DZC with.
People playing Germans in WW2 games? If so, Red Army players should count too. And I'd add people playing Empire side in any Star Wars game :P
See now thats a little different, and Ive gotta admit, if thats how they've written it, then it would leave a bad taste in my mouth as well. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women But to be honest unfortunately I kind of expected this glorification of Japans millitary history, its par for the course and ties in with a lot of pop culture around the world, not the least the source anime for a game like infinity. People just arent aware of what utter bastards the Japanese were and theres a whole lot of reasons that are pretty complicated for that. The unfortunate truth is that we live in a world that for whatever reason will lose its shit at the idea of catholic martial prowess but will glorify the Bushido code to all get out. It sucks but its a bigger problem than just CB, its a proble, with the culture CB draws upon.
So by your own admittance you don't actually have the framework in place to understand the answers you get. You are running some heavy false equivalents there. That's like comparing shoplifting with murder, because they're both crimes. It's also like you calling me "nigger" and expecting an African American to react in the same way as I do. Teutons, Hassassins, Jannisary are all significantly older history, their deeds stretch a longer time period, but most importantly what crimes they committed are not as relevant today. Should the name Kempeitai be treated with the gravitas it deserves, we can equate them to the SS being used as they are in Wolfenstein or the historical games in which rewriting or disassociating them from their deeds aren't happening, but if they're treated like they were prior to the secessionist era where they are described more like the French Resistance movement, it's... eh... But at no point should we question whether or why someone doesn't want to play a faction with these units in them. Edit: just to put this straight; the problem here isn't that this is an issue, the problem is that somehow someone finding this to be an issue must be motivated, questioned and doubted.
I don't know where you take that from, but no, I've never admitted anything of the sort. I've done my research regarding the Kempeitai, but I don't find their actions particularly relevant to this discussion. The lack of distinction between reality and fiction is the problem here. Imagine a new movie where a Nazi, through some surprising chain of events, saves the world. If it's a well crafted movie at best or an absurd comedy at worst, I would probably watch it. At no point would it come to my mind that this is in any way redeeming the deeds of the Nazi troops in the 20th century. It is, in fact, entirely detached. The same principle applies here. Kempeitai is (was) a military denomination that encapsuled a certain branch of the Japanese military with very specific tasks. These people have commited terrible crimes against humanity in WW2, similar to the Nazis. If the same military denomination is used within an entirely detached fictional context, I see no reason to get offended by this. You are, of course, still free to get offended, I'm just wondering why that is.
see now me, I have no problem having a list of things that make someone an utter bastard regardless of the "good" they might do. Being a Nazi or most other ultranationalist movements ticsk that box
Oh also, Guys, this is going to be a fairly emotive topic of conversation. Please, Keep it as civil as possible. On that note @psychoticstorm might want to keep an eye on this one mate
And it would probably be illegal in France and Germany, and Israel would pressure sanctions against nations screening it. The latter is a low bar to clear, but all the same. That's the thing. You've been told why some people find it offensive, but you're questioning them being offended not the reason for it.
I don't have a problem with other people using Kempeitais. Those people may be oblivious to modern history, not care so much about fluff, have a different attitude towards fantasy vs history than me, etc. It is just that I feel uncomfortable with playing a unit that bears the name of fascist war criminals. I would not play Waffen-SS in Flames of War, for example. I don't think that people who do that are Nazis. I just don't feel good about wanting to win with my army when elements of it bear symbols and names of something that I feel strong hatred against. I know that quite a few Chinese have not forgotten the atrocities of WW2 and don't feel good about things like the Kempeitai. I don't think it was a good move of having that name in the game. Especially when there is an association with "freedom fighter against Yu Jing" in it.
I don't think it would be illegal in Germany. See the movie "Er ist wieder da" as a reference. Anyway, I'm questioning your being offended because I want to understand the reasoning behind it, when the objective reality is very much opposed to your premise.
