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Vanilla PanO - What is the problem?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by valukr, Apr 17, 2021.

  1. valukr

    valukr Well-Known Member

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    I am on the verge of playing around with some Vanilla PanO and wanna prepare myself for the difficulties I will likely encounter. Vanilla PanO is the least represented Vanilla faction I personally see; please help me understand why?
     
  2. SpectralOwl

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    Because of PanO's design limitations and style causing Fireteam play to be almost directly superior within the faction, as well as several key units from Sectorials being Sectorial exclusive (Varuna's better Squalo, ASA and NCA's ALEPH loaners, MO's Knight Commander and Trinitarians, better Machinists) and very poor design for Vanilla in recent years- there's heaps of duplicated roles amongst newer offerings, so we get fewer options from jumping to Vanilla than most.
     
    valukr likes this.
  3. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I play mostly vanilla PanO nowadays, with the odd foray into SAA, which is by far my favourite sectorial design in the game. The thing that keeps drawing me to vanilla is the combination of units that I can bring. It's not the strengths, but the lack of weaknesses, relative to the sectorials.

    In vanilla I can have the Swiss and Aquila as long range beaters, but I can ALSO have a strong midfield presence via Croc Men (aka bestest unit ever).

    I can have Mendoza starting up the field, and also have him supported with a credible long range threat (i.e. that Swiss again)

    I can run Regular minelayers AND Auxilia in the same list for a great defense in my deployment zone.

    I can run a Tikbalang as a light support TAG with almost anything.

    There is no list that doesn't get better with a Helot in group 2.

    So while i love the brute force that can be applied in a sectorial and some of the combinations of units that are not available in vanilla (SAA being a prime example), I often find that the points I invest in a core link can give me different threat vectors that I can use to solve the same problems without putting all of my eggs in the same basket.

    I think you will have a good time with vanilla PanO as long as you have the mindset that PanO is not just about getting to BS 19 in every face to face roll, but also about leveraging the overall high quality of its troops to project credible threat vectors on every part of the board.
     
  4. valukr

    valukr Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, sir.

    I have no doubt I'll enjoy it. I will solely rely on Joan of Arc 2.0 initially as I've been using her a lot in MO recently with good success; i cannot wait to see what she will enable with models like Nokken, Knauf, Cube Jagers etc
     
  5. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    In N3, vanilla wasn't very popular, but with the Varuna and N4 changes vanilla gained a lot. In my opinion, the decrease in tournaments because of the coronavirus pandemic and the previous inertia, makes vanilla still not very popular, but it’s definitely much better than it was before.
     
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  6. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I played Vanilla pano for a whole season (2019-2020) and loved it

    Yes you don't have fireteam and less AVA on some troop, but in exchange you can combine advantages from everyone :
    - cheap order with Joan
    - good skirmisher from varuna
    - good HI from Military orders
    - swiss guard or aquila as on offensive piece
    - hexa, swiss guard and croc man as ARO road block
    - every TAG from pano depending on your taste and need (each of them is interesting and different)
     
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  7. Freki

    Freki Well-Known Member

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    I framed the problem differently when wondering about vanilla PanO.

    Why would you ever play Vanilla PanO over Vanilla CA? Aside of maybe slightly better TAGs and Joan inspiring leadership skill, nothing really strikes me as an asset.

    Hacking, LOF blockers, war bands, lieutenant, drop troops, camo game, impersonators, board control and maybe other aspects, you have very little upper hand.

    Anyway good luck I hope you'll enjoy them
     
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The main reason to play Vanilla in N3 was all the irregular list building combo things you could abuse to get value out of Joan with, that was their unique point.

    Joan is hyper vulnerable to getting smacked by Oblivion and leaving you with an army of Irregular units in N4. So their big list building trick really isn't so hot anymore, and others have said no longer has any real ability to outweigh the benefits of picking a sectorial and abusing link team firepower.
     
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Isn't that reason enough? CA doesn't have anything like the Tik or Dragao. When I want to play a TAG, I don't even consider any faction that isn't Pano.
     
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  10. SpectralOwl

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    There really isn't any other faction that plays like PanO. Effective and cheap frontline REMs including Auxbots, sheer variety of TAGs for slotting into most lists, effective divisions of unit roles and a scant few pieces of truly advanced tech give the faction a rare, distinct playstyle that I personally far prefer to the typical CA lists. They're a bit weak competitively, but if you prefer their style accept no substitutes.
     
  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    This is mostly about all the things N4 changed and how good any given Faction or Sectorial is suited to deal with the new ground rules.

    Most TAGs and HI got significantly cheaper and PanO's top performers we're already good in N3.
    Combined with the 15 slot cap we're at less of a disadvantage to not have all the choices that naturally went along with 2+ full Combat group lists in N3. Cheap high impact Skirmishers like Zeroes and Chasseurs, Warbands like Monks, Morlocks and Mutts, all of those are much less of a nobrainer now. Helots got the short end of the stick here (both circumstancial and in terms of changes to their Profile), but what's not to like about a Camo turret that gives an Order in a Joan List.

    You got a choice in terms of TAGs you don't get anywhere else. Most TAGs are still expensive compared to their survivability. All those new frills on Guija and Maggie pretty much costed them the benefits of N4. Most of the time you'd be better off with something plain and simple like the Dragao instead of getting stuck with expensive sidegrades that don't help in a straight fight.

    Vanilla PanO has a couple stand out performers.

    • Never liked slow and expensive backfield Lts, no matter how good their Lt skills are. N4 finally lets you run Joan V2 as Lt with an Exp CCW. Mini Achilles in a list with coordinated Panzerfausts, MLs and Blitzens. Don't forget to run a Bolt CoC and an Engineer though.
    • Karhu are excellent combat specialists. You need something unhackable to support your HI and TAGs in places where they run into trouble. What could be better than a 6-2, C+, MSV1, NCO Engineer?
    • Every threat is only as scary as your countermeasures. The EB Paramedic with one of the usual PanO guns lets you take down TAGs and Linked ARO pieces with high probability. PanO can take basically anything head on and expect to win already.
    • The lonely AVA1 Teuton is new on this list. Magisters weren't a staple in my Vanilla lists before. A 6-2, BS13 Specialist, with anti material CC capability and a Panzerfaust is a welcome addition though. He pairs very nicely with Krakots to get some CC threat and screening into PanO lists.
    • There are 3 main choices of TAG atm.
      First one is the Tik as hunter killer on a board less crammed with bodies but more forward Hacking and Repeaters to circumnavigate. You'll need to add some anti armor support for him, shouldn't be too hard.
      Second one is a good old heavy TAG. Basically Dragao vs Jotum, while the Jotum is certainly not terrible, better firepower and a respectable statline for less are hard to argue with.
      The third one is the Cutter, depending on if you want to stick with the ARO ruling for HD he can be a very safe Lt on top of being the deadliest gunfighter in the game.
    • Swiss ML remains a contender for the scariest ARO piece in the game. ARM5 will prevent even a crit from being reliable, BS15 lets you use the ML up to Shotgun Rangebands and Hidden Deployment serves as a "one use" 360 Visor against all those annoying deployment options we have to deal with. Ofc he also operates at 100% efficiency in Saturation Zones, Coordinated Orders which means a Swiss ML + PZF barrage will be an option to solve your problems in about any mission out there.
    • Hexa MSR. Cheaper, Shock Immunity, doesn't always have to be a Swiss Guard ML to lay an ARO trap. The loss of Stun Ammunition hurts, still very effective.
    • Acon Regulars. The Sensor Minelayer lost a lot of their utility now that Triangulated Fire can hit friendlies and Sniffers are no more. Still a Mine and a Sensor in the DZ are rarely bad to have. They take a bow to the Hacker Profile now. WIP13 Hacker, Fastpanda, Grenade Launcher for 1 over a Fusilier. Be it repossessing your TAG, Coordinating GLs with Grenades from Krakots to clear a Moran, well worth running one or two.
    • Auxilia are one of the few ways to get additional bodies into a list and ofc serve double duty as Specialists. Combined with TO AROs lurking around having some DTWs in a PanO list is always useful.
    • And last but not least the Aquila HMG. With Sensor hamstrung by the loss of Sniffers and the guy getting significantly cheaper a MSV3 can be invalueable Order efficiency. If you can mindgame your opponent into expecting something else (like a TAG), dropping an Aquila Reserve piece on a board that wasn't expecting one can turn some matchups from "rough" into "shooting gallery".
     
  12. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I would add Croc Man MSR to that. it's a bit costlier than Hexa but in many table the inflitration allows you to claim LoF that the Hexa and/or Swiss ML cannot reach. Swiss + Croc or even Swiss + Hexa + Croc allow for a lot of fun
     
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  13. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    PanO generally relies on superior firepower to do things. To get out of the deployment zone, to pave the way for specialists to push buttons, to get to the HVT or designated target. Fireteams are a force multiplier for BS attacks, which is why PanO does very well with sectorials. Loosing out on that doesn’t make PanO bad, but it can present challenges when there aren’t cheap linked gunfighters in the last turn to lean on.
     
  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    The Crocman is only 2 points more than the Hexa. Thats a very minor difference. So its a choice between courage and shock immunity vs infiltration.
     
    #14 Death, Apr 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I remember the difference being bigger (38 vs 32 in my N3 memory, 32 and 30 now). Did the croc man MSR cost go down in N4 ?
     
  16. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Yup, crocmen sniper is 6 points cheaper now. God bless N4. Lol The Hexa sniper is no longer an auto pick which leaves open the other good Hexa profiles.
     
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  17. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Yeah, personally I favour the KHD now.
     
  18. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
    Warcor

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    hexa/croc: it depend on the table but courage+shock immun can be a lot better than infiltration ... if you play a doctor

    no one talk about the KotHS CoC but to me he's the only MO unit playable in vanilla, with maybe one magister but in theirs price range there is lot of better options like liang kai ...
    VS nomad and other hacker creeps he's really good and can do anything

    I've mostly played pano vanilla in N4 and let's face it it's just bad. but at least you will not lose your FT turn one
    I'm still waiting to find a list without the auto boring include joan and wtf friend of all over the galaxy
     
    #18 Sangarn, Jul 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2021
    Vaulsc likes this.
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