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Trinity and Unconcious Hackers

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Maqu, Apr 16, 2021.

  1. Maqu

    Maqu Well-Known Member

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    Can You target unconcious hacker with Trinity program? Hacker is an automatic skill and it does not work in that state, or am i wrong?
     
  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Hmm, posted before checking the date. The ruling is an N3 ruling, and the wording ijw referred to doesn't appear to be in N4. I think the logic would still apply - the unconscious Hacker can't use her skill, but still has the skill and is therefore a hacker. But I'm no longer sure if it's been definitively confirmed in N4...
     
  4. Maqu

    Maqu Well-Known Member

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    I would love some official N4 ruling on this.
     
  5. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
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    it same to Isolated hacker. skill does not work, but it still exist, so Unconscious/Isolated hacker still a hacker & can be targeted by programs against hackers
     
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  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    I would not be so sure...

    With Isolation you shut down Comms Equipments, but the requirement to be affected by an Hacking Attack is the Hacker skill and not the actual Device.

    With Unconscious, the Hacker skill cease to have any effect.
     
  7. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
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    but it still there? ;)
     
  8. Maqu

    Maqu Well-Known Member

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    It is rather unclear, we can argue one way or another but it does not make it official.
     
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Yeah, the analogy with Isolated doesn't work, unfortunately. ijw's ruling that an isolated hacker is still a hacker comes from the fact that the Isolated state shuts down the hacking device, not the Hacker skill (https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/isolated-hacker.39516/#post-399669)

    Whereas, if the hacker is Unconscious, the Hacker automatic skill "has no effect."

    I think that probably the hacker still has the Hacker skill, and is therefore a Hacker, even while that skill has no effect. But I agree that it doesn't seem to have been decided in N4, and that the rule can't be extrapolated from the ruling regarding an Isolated hacker.
     
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  10. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    If we think that N4 rules can be extrapolated, then the answer is easy. Non-hackable (p. 106) especially states that it’s active in null state. Hacker doesn’t. Therefore hacker isn’t active in null state.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In that case, you wouldn't be able to use Command Tokens to reroll revives on Remote Presence and Cube units.

    Note how being able to be targeted by Trinity is not part of the Hacker skill - that's dictated by the Trinity skill.
     
  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Here are a couple of other thoughts.

    1. Trooper Characteristics are listed under the Unit Profile rules. Characteristics consist of Training (Regular or Irregular), Troop Type (LI, MI, etc.), Trooper Classification (Elite, Headquarters, etc.), ISC, and the Hackable Characteristic.

    The rule for the Hackable Characteristic says that HI, REMs, TAGs, and Hackers are all Hackable.

    To me this suggests that the Hackable Characteristic is something that a unit profile either has or doesn't have. So a hacker would have the Hackable Characteristic by virtue of being a hacker profile, regardless of whether its Hacker Skill is currently working.

    Non-Hackable, on the other hand, is only a Skill, not a Characteristic. Consequently, it needs to state that it remains on when unconscious, otherwise it would stop working when unconscious.

    2. In the rules above the Hacker Skill, it states "The term Hacker designates a set of Troopers who have received specific training in Infowar. This training allows them to make use both of Hacking Devices, and the programs specifically designed for them."

    This also suggests that a Hacker is a Hacker by virtue of its unit profile, since even if the Hacker skill is currently turned off, the trooper still has the "specific training in infowar" which makes it possible for it to use that skill.
     
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  13. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The Hackable characteristic could be completely removed from the ruleset and have absolutely no impact.

    Is the Hacker skill the same? If a Hacker is a hacker by virtue of "just being one", and the skill has absolutely no purpose (because even when disabled it would still function)?
     
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    N4 moved the Hackable Characteristic to the Profile.

    You can hack any enemy Hacker in any state that's not dead in N4 because of that.
    There's no problem in N4 with Unconscious etc turning off Automatic Equipment or Isolated etc turning off Hacking Devices.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The issue in this thread is that Trinity doesn't interact with the Hackable Characteristic at all. It's all about the Hacker Automatic Skill.
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    upload_2021-4-29_12-28-19.png

    upload_2021-4-29_12-29-14.png

    Trinity etc requires you to be a Hacker.
    Which is Listend on a Hacker's Profile in N4 and can't disappear or be disabled during the game.
    That's different from N3, where having a Hacking Device or access to hacking Programs made you a Hacker.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That the Hacker Skill is listed on that profile, it shows up the same way that Forward Observer or Minelayer does.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Whoops, misremembered the correct line of argumentation for N4.
    N4 does not turn off Skills when Unconscious.

    upload_2021-4-29_13-14-46.png

    N4 cancels their effects. The Skill is still Active and Obligatory just without effects.
    N3 turned off Automatic Skills while Unconscious altogether. That's no longer the case in N4.
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It would fit with the N4 paradigm to have Trinity absolutely useless at killing hackers unless they fail two saves from the getgo.

    RAW, you're right, but the rules are dumb.
     
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