Just wanted to clarify how LoF and partial cover work while active model is climbing up ladders or using Climbing+. Situation1: Active blue friendly trooper is moving up a ladder. Reactive red enemy trooper is standing on a roof. Both models declare BS attacks. Q1.1: Which models get partial cover? Q1.2: Replace ladders with Climbing+. Which models get partial cover? Situation 2: Active blue friendly trooper is moving up a ladder and its base is momentarity partly over the edge of the roof. Reactive red enemy trooper is standing on a roof. Both models declare BS attacks. Q2.1: Is the blue trooper movement legal? If yes, which models get partial cover? Q2.2: Replace ladders with Climbing+. Is the blue trooper movement legal? If yes, which models get partial cover? Situation 3: Active blue friendly trooper is moving up a ladder and its base is just on the edge of the roof. The blue trooper wants to shoot targetless weapon (smoke grenade) on the top of the roof (the spot marked by a red). Q3.1: Does the blue trooper have a LoF to red spot?
S1. Q1.1: Both S1.Q1.2: Red Reason: Units that are climbing or holding on to vertical surfaces does not receive cover (Climb rules) while ladders count as horizontal surfaces and thus do not modify any cover rules (General Movement Rules and the Move skill) S2.Q2.1.: Blue trooper can never be in that situation as the base would be unsupported. S2.Q2.2.: Blue trooper can never be in that situation as the base would be unsupported. Reason: Units have to always have their base fully supported (General Movement Rules) S3.Q3.1.: This is a bit of a mathematical question whether you can draw a straight line from one part of a surface to another without that line being interrupted. I would suggest not, unless the wall is sloping for a less-then-90-degrees edge, given that the we are dealing with an imperfect physical world, but in the realm of theoretical mathematics where the surface of the building is absolutely perfectly smooth and the edge between the wall and the floor is molecular perfect it is possible.
@Mahtamori so no "lean out" regarding S2.Q2? Model can't go over the edge even if it backtracks to a position where the base is fully supported? S3.Q3.1 also take into account "horizontal movement gives you extra movement if you touch the edge of the roof" example in page 37.
Pretty much, Lean Out is dead and you can only ever go over an edge if terrain forces you to do so to get past obstacles. Page 37 have examples of ladders and stairs as well as vaulting, you do not get any extra movement when moving on those surfaces. Climb has a free snap-to distance equal to your base for when you finish your climb. Regardless of which, to get that distance you need to actually finish your movement on top of the building in your example.
Yes on a ladder, no if climb+. That's the same situation as situation 1. Unlike smoke ammo's target, the prone enemy has a physical volume.
I meant if the blue (not red) gets partial cover negative modifiers. An argument can be made that the blue sees red silhouette completely.
Right. I don't think there's an official answer to that and I wouldn't hope there ever will be. I had a bit of a back-and-forth with, I think it was, inane.imp about this on the forums if you care to look it up. Basically what we ended up with was that you and your opponent have to come to an agreement whether the building has an outward sloping wall or not and whether the edge of the building is a perfect angle or slightly tapered. If you agree that the situation can adequately be described through geometric mathematics or if you agree the building's wall slopes outwards slightly, then the prone unit doesn't get cover, otherwise it does.
That does seem to be an argument I'd make. Re: 2. I still dislike that answer. I think poking out half way then transitioning with half your base poking out is far more intuitive. The fact that it means you clip into terrain, when going from floor to wall, is irrelevant: clipping into terrain is permitted elsewhere. But alas, that's not how it appears to be played.
Here's the thread: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/move-over-edge-to-look-below.38296/page-5 This is the same question, rotated 90 degrees. I think we agreed that we should treat the building as a geometrically perfect rectangular prism. Otherwise we have to precisely measure the angle between its sides. 89 degrees you get cover, 91 degrees you don't. However, if we assume the angle is exactly 90 degrees, there was still a debate as to whether, mathematically, you get cover. I found the "no cover" argument to be more convincing. (And, to the extent that "likes" help, so did the majority of readers :-)
With perfect angles Blue has Cover and Red does not. Why? Math. Red is 100% above the roof level, it does not intersect with the roof whatsoever. Blue has LOF from exactly roof level and can see everything at or above roof level -> 100% of Red So Red does not get to claim cover if it's not on the very edge of the roof (as in our example). Blue can claim cover (if on a ladder) because part of its Silhouette is obstructed from Red. That gets messy, very very quick with the tiniest of irrgeularities on the roof, a tiny lip etc and you can't see 100% and Red has Cover too.
@Teslarod Yes, already knew everything that was said in this thread. Because ofc I did. Rules are unclear and ripe for exploitation. Just trying to get a favourable precedent here ;). To make matters even more complicated, add a (non-zero width) palisade to the equation.
Yeah, Microarts usually has a tiny lip like this green bit. Tadaa Red always has Cover because Blue can't see the area blocked behind the lip.
Palisades might be considered a different terrain piece (and not part of the house/stairs). In that case, trooper need to vault over them, which fails if the trooper is climbing ladders while prone.
Generally, most people play that in that situation Red will not get cover because read isn't in SIL contact with the object obstructing LOF. It's part of the whole "how does cover work with irregularly shaped terrain?" conversation.
Would this mean that, under the rules, you have to consider parapets a separate terrain piece from the building to be able to climb over them? Since the base cannot be supported on the top? (or probably on the inside going down it to the roof)
When you reach the top of the surface you climb on, you move your unit to the closest position it is supported by (there's even an example that flat out ignores that the first surface the climbing model would need to traverse when going down is not large enough to support the Fusilier). If you're using Climb you get that movement free and if you're using a ladder (which isn't climbing) or using Climbing Plus (which is climbing) you have to pay that distance. So whether you consider it a separate piece of terrain or not really shouldn't matter, just be mindful of not putting too much uneven trash near the ledge unless it's specifically to prevent units from climbing up there (or to cause a rules argument) (For the record, I'm free form interpreting the Climb rules here, I think N3 had a rule specifically dealing with railings and the likes, but N4 doesn't seem to have)
