1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Squeezing terrain to create a "ladder"

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Mahtamori, Apr 8, 2021.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Imagine the terrain as such:
    A motorcycle is standing on top of a shipping container which is 60mm tall.
    On the side of the container are two crates. The crates are 30mm on each side.

    The motorcycle player wants to get down from the container using Move skill. Can they use the crates to move down if
    a) The crates are standing next to each other forming a 60mm wide path so that the motorcycle squeezes in the direction of movement?
    b) The crates are standing next to each other forming a 60mm long path so that the motorcycle squeezes like a narrow bridge?

    Or put differently; can we start and stop "vaulting" while "squeezing"?
    E.g.
    Motorcycle declares Move.
    Motorcycle starts vaulting and starts squeezing, moves down onto the crate and stops vaulting.
    Motorcycle starts another vaulting and moves down onto flat ground and stops vaulting and squeezing.
    End of Move.
     
  2. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,335
    Likes Received:
    1,982
    In order to use "squeezing", the gap between obstacles or surface that you're moving across has to be at least half your base width across. The expectation is that that's perpendicular to the direction of movement.

    There appears to be no reason why you cannot combine "squeezing", "vaulting" and any of the other provisions of the movement rules at the same time. But there also doesn't appear to be any provision allowing a player to say "I'm invoking squeezing here to allow me to stop vaulting in this place where I can't fit my base". Vaulting requires you to have a stop, and you don't stop while squeezing.
     
  3. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    Well, but vaulting doesn’t cause your movement to end when the vault is completed, as long as you have unused movement available you can keep going. And if that remaining movement gets you to where your base is fully supported with no squeezing at the end location then you’re good, no?

    A model could theoretically move down a narrow alley with a traffic barrier in the middle, squeezing the full length of the alley and vaulting the barrier partway along their move, as long as they can make it to the open area beyond the alley in a single move.
     
    kinginyellow likes this.
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    @Mahtamori The initial premise doesn't ask the right question for the scenario given.
    For the given example it doesn't matter if there are one or two crates, if they can support 50% of the base or not or if they touch the container or not.
    All that matters is a valid start and end point with base 100% supported and the elevation difference between them making a vault possible.

    There's no Squeeze required or involved, the path taken during a vault does not have the "50% of your base needs to be supported" requirement.
    You can vault an infinitely thin fence and you'd still be placed on top of it during your movement path as long as you can end your movement with your base fully supported on the other side.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    This situation came up during a game I watched two people play on TTS last night. I don't know how they solved it (or even if they became aware of it) because I was busy typing the question.
    The question you attempt to answer has already been answered by IJW in very firm terms. I'm asking about an edge case scenario and the interaction between these two special movement rules, so a fence or anything smaller than 27.5mm is irrelevant.
    The reason why I'm asking about the crates position is that it might actually matter for how the movement is conducted considering that it dictates at what point in the movement the unit is 60mm in the air (i.e. more than the 32mm height).

    Here is a simplified version:
    1. The unit can not vault down without a mid-point step. The height difference is far too high.
    2. The mid-point step is too small to support the entire base.
    3. The mid-point step is sufficiently large to support more than half the base.
    Can you use the squeezing rule on the mid-point step to split the single illegal vaulting movement into two separate legal vaulting movements as part of the same Move skill?

    I can essentially see three different interpretations that might answer this, even if I fail to find rules text supporting two of them;
    1. No you can't because vaulting is done per skill and not per movement increment (can't find rules)
    2. No you can't because vaulting requires the base to be fully supported and squeezing doesn't fully support the base (can't find rules)
    3. Yes you can because the rules for vaulting are only concerned with positions during the movement where you no longer need to be vaulting to move.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
  8. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    Maybe I'm misreading your posts in the thread?
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    My post in that thread was made at a time while I was unaware of some misconceptions I had about how squeezing worked and I wasn't exactly the one asking questions there. I'm specifically asking about the grey area you bring up in that thread (and yes, I did just properly that last parahraph)

    But should I take this as "squeezing" being a special case of vaulting? Or perhaps that the grey area is still grey?
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    Missed the point there, what i'm saying is it doesn't matter if you could squeeze it if you're already using vault.

    You can vault while you squeeze. I.e. vault a box while squeezing through a narrow corridor.
    You can't squeeze while you vault. You're fulfilling the requirements for a squeeze while the vault is still in progress.

    Your example tries to squeeze while you vault. Which you can't do and is also unneccessary because vault lets you ingore the reason why you'd want to squeeze in that situation to begin with.

    [​IMG]

    Vault allows you to get from start to end here, ignoring usual requirements for base contact completely, which negates any possible interaction with a squeeze, which relies on >=50% base contact to the surface you are moving on. As long as you're vaulting it's irrelevant if you have 1% (i.e. a fence) or 100% (i.e. vaulting off a container onto the ground) base contact to the obstacle you.

    The "mid point step" you reference to is not part of the rules. If the container in your example is higher than your Silhouette you can't get down from it with a vault unless the 30mm crates can completely support your base.
    It's not possible to create a middle step where you can gain ground to stand on with a squeeze to allow for a 2 step vault and go down a container potentially higher than your Silhouette.
     
    #10 Teslarod, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I'm gonna have to make pictures I think :(

    @Teslarod seeing as you are not IJW or Koni etc, I'm wondering what rules you are basing your arguments on. Reasoning around things is all well and good, but you're using rules and illustrations that do not take the most relevant part of the question into account.
    I'm not asking about an object that can't support the trooper's movement, I'm talking about a piece of terrain that specifically can support the trooper's Move Requirements because it forms a narrow walkway that supports more than half of the trooper's base.

    Taken to the extreme, a board that's 4" long and 2" wide, angled downwards to form a ramp with 2" height difference requires you to vault onto and vault off of (even if it is miniscule), which is fine for an S2 trooper, but a motorcycle would need to invoke the narrow passage rule/example in the rules because it's 55mm wide. Could that Motorcycle still use that ramp?
     
  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    I can't find anything in the rules text that speaks to the need for a trooper's base to be supported while vaulting. The vault rule just says "A Trooper can move over any scenery item whose height is equal to or lower than the height of the Trooper’s Silhouette Template."

    The requirement that the base be supported probably comes from long practice and several rulings. The one that I'm aware of is @ijw in the double-vaulting thread saying "Have you reached a point where your base is supported? If you haven't, then you are still vaulting, and are therefore any vertical movement will be limited by the Trooper's Silhouette height."

    He said "supported," not "fully supported," leaving unanswered the question of whether your base is "supported" if >50% of it is supported. Arguably, the squeezing rule would allow a 51%-supported base to be supported for the purpose of a vault. In fact, ijw explicitly left that question unanswered since, in the same post, he said "There's a grey area for intermediate 'steps' that don't fully support the base but are at least half the width of the base."

    I don't think it will be possible to reach a conclusion through reasoning, where ijw has himself said that it's a grey area. I'd say it belongs on the unanswered questions list.

    That said, I would suggest also noting in the unanswered question that, although we don't have a ruling, ijw has "strongly recommended" playing it as not allowed (in the same post).
     
    kinginyellow and Mahtamori like this.
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    The ramp does not matter to the question if you can vault that or not.
    Only the height difference between start and end point does.

    If the height difference between the starting point on top of the ramp and the legal ending point on the bottom of the ramp allows a vault you can vault and your trooper will move over the ramp using vault rules, treating the ramp as an obstacle.
    There's no need or opportunity to make use of the squeeze rules, they're not used here.

    upload_2021-4-9_15-58-45.png
    The red line is a ramp that's >50% of our trooper's base in width. Our trooper moves from the blue position to the orange position.
    In scenario A the ramp is not there.
    In scenario B the ramp is there.
    In both scenarios he does so using vault since we didn't put in extra effort and the ramp is not defined as stairs or ladders and does not allow regular movement. The only thing that changes for B, is the path of the vault movement as the trooper stays above the obstacle during his movement path.
    Squeeze rules never come up here.

    A Motorcycle could not vault down here having too low S value to pass the height difference. Since rules for ramps don't exist in N4 you'll have to house rule something to allow a motorcycle to go down the same path with a Move.
    If you do that it can then Squeeze and make the ramp work (assuming it is 50% of its base witdth).
    If you don't the ramp is a generic scenery element with no special impact on Movement rules and the Bike has to declare a jump to get down.

    Main issue here is that the game refuses to address tilted surfaces in any way shape or form other than ladders and stairs.
    Ramps simply don't exist in the rules, it's on the TO or whoever sets up the table says they are okay to move on the same way as horizontal surfaces.
     
    #13 Teslarod, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    To address your inital scenario.
    Should look something like this:

    upload_2021-4-9_16-19-3.png
    Lets assume the two crates are not "deep" enough (in the missing dimension) to fully support our Silhouette as in your example.
    We don't get to use the crates as a middle step and our Silhouette is smaller than the total difference in height in between start and end position. We can't get down with a Move since vault is illegal.

    If our Silhouette were tall enough to qualify for vault, we would move to the end position along the crates anyway and have no reason to invoke a Squeeze no matter the width of the crates.
     
  15. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    Why not?

    That's the question this thread asks, and which ijw has already said is a grey area.
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    ?
    We had that example recently in another thread with a TAG (think it was a Jotum) wanting to use a crate as a stepladder to get onto a platform higher than his Silhouette.
    Which is not a grey area, it's not a legal vault (and IJW confirmed that in the thread he is referencing).

    Works the same way up or down (well - does not work in this case). Vaulting is always between two locations that can fully support your base.
    You can't double vault or use things as stepping stones to reach something higher than your Silhouette.
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/double-vaulting.38762/
     
    #16 Teslarod, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    It's right there is the quote you posted.

    The thread involved the TAG trying to double-vault using a crate that was <50% of its base width. ijw said that's not allowed.

    Regarding the scenario where the same crate is >50% of the TAG's base width, he said "There's a grey area for intermediate 'steps' that don't fully support the base but are at least half the width of the base"
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation