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Private information: Cost and SWC

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WWHSD, Apr 4, 2021.

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  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No they can't.

    The Mine needs to be deployed in the ZOC of the Minelayer so IF there is timing within a deployment step you need to deploy the Mine immediately after the Minelayer because you can't deploy in ZOC of something that isn't there. Also, the Minelayer skill (that allows you to deploy the Mine) won't work until you deploy the Minelayer. So the first of 2 Camo Markers deployed can never be a Mine (IF there is timing within a deployment step).

    There's also remarkably few Decoys in comparison to Minelayers. Less factions have Decoy than have HD. Troops with both Minelayer and Decoy are extremely rare. But in any event it makes some shell games impossible.

    I *strongly* disagree that there should be timing within a deployment step. Rather I think it should be considered that everything within a Deployment step happens simultaneously. There is an exception that any rolls performed or measuring Coherency locks model into position (measuring Coherency specifies what you can adjust once you measure).

    Nothing in the rules requires there to be timing within the deployment step other than the exceptions I mentioned. Treating them as exceptions functions better, IMO, than introducing internal timing to a deployment step.

    Mostly because being able to go to the bar / counter /toilet during your opponent's Deployment is one of the great things about Infinity that should be preserved.
     
  2. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    To start with, it wasn't TO who did this but the players themselves, and not a ban. The one who demanded to know the Sphinx's stats took a loss. It was clearly a bad mental day for both players. And a lot of it has to do with etiquette in the area over the exact raw.

    But the culture where I play is heavily against looking up your opponents models. Its public info on that model and you ask/ look at courtesy list, otherwise your memory is your only friend. Atleast for tournaments. Our area assists new players through easier games or new wacky lists from the veteran players to give the new players a hand. Or stop the game to tell the player what they could do to mess up the veteran's plan (smoke + msv, how to move to get cc, best way to hack the bbeg, that sorta thing). But in tournaments, you just don't ask private things and you don't look it up and so there is no need to have the weird impass.

    At that point of the game, the 2 players were just sorta butting heads and having a right miserable enough time, but still being on that side of etiquette to finish the game. It was a tourney otherwise pretty sure the "screw it im done" would have occured".

    At this point nothing new for most people here having played a massive amount of games have had once or twice irregardless of etiquette about army use in tourneys.

    Until the ca player moved the tag, other player asked what the bs/arm/bts of the s6 TO camo was. Again, not a thing to ask. So the ca player told him no, it's just a TO camo model. Other player demanded to know the stats or would just look at it himself, which passed the point of etiquette here. So ca player did go fuck it and walked out.

    When other player had to explain to TO wtf just happened, he volunteered to take the loss as he is the one to have caused that. Judges listened to both sides, told both sides that it should never have gotten to that stage and get TO's faster and in the end accepted the other player's loss that round.

    The other player is still my buddy and we do look back and go "that overall sucked and he screwed up with that bad day, and taking the loss was correct".

    so yea, it sucked but atleast in this area its a thing that would call a judge for. I have never played a person in a tourney that has obviously and knowingly looked up my models private information intentionally but if I had and there was no prior remarks of that tourney that it was acceptable, I would probably call a judge.
     
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  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Concur. Also, thought this was a settled question.
     
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  4. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Quite a different story.

    So one player threw a tantrum because he didn't want his opponent to access game ressources. (It's okay for him not to tell him the stats of his marker, he doesn't want to give it away, but the one one can also just check it). And then he made a scene, walked out and it made the other player feel bad and that player decided to take a game loss?

    Imagine if everyone just had access to game ressources, one of the player could've just consulted Army, get the info they wanted about the profile they wanted. Whether or not that is the correct one in game, and then everyone proceeds to have a good game.
     
  5. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Hard not to wince reading that. What a ridiculous and needless confrontation. I'm glad I've never met a player who didn't sarcastically remark some variation of "I wonder what this could be" when placing their sphinx shaped "S6 TO camo marker" on the table.
     
  6. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Technically you can place your Decoy first and then the Mine + Minelayer? And yeah, this should not be a thing at all.
     
  7. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Disagree, when your area has etiquette on what is and is not acceptable to do during a game and the game is miserable enough to have already ended if not for the desire to finish the tourney, and they just blatantly cross the line.

    In the area I play, doing this is against the rules, from house rule or etiquette or just by adamantly disagreeing with about it being against the rules at all. It matters not, here it is unacceptable.

    Where in the rules does it say you allowed to breathe?
    Where in the rules does it explicitly allow or ban you from using army?
    Where in the rules does it prevent you from marking the terrain every 4" with a pen when legally allowed to measure for something?
    Where in the rules does it force us to spend orders within a reasonable amount of time?
    Where in the rules does it say the dice must be properly balanced, and defines what that means?

    The rules do not have statements on what is or is not acceptable outside of the game by the players. This is a standard mechanic of all games.

    All those last questions are not answered in the rules, yet etiquette is how we all play the game.
     
    #207 kinginyellow, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
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  8. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    This reminds me of when I first showed Ariadna to a guy (he wanted to play the sectorial), swapping between me and him playing the FLGS minis (some basic Haqq stuff without any shenanigans) and just showed off "a guy who changes into a werewolf when you hurt him" (Dog Warrior ofc). "Ooooh, scary mini, nice."

    Next mini game I showed him more or less how Camo works, how to deal with it, etc. "Oh, so cool, this can be so tricky! Nice!".

    So I immediately started a new one and plonked down three laser cut "werewolf" shaped camo silhouettes and showed that they move as one, etc. - his "WHAT THE HELL IS THAT THEN, A WHOLE PACK OF CAMOUFLAGED WEREWOLVES?! I LOVE THIS GAME!" reaction was just priceless xD

    You get to do that to someone only once, he bought all in xD
     
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  9. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Oh, they both knew it was either sphinx or anathematic, but when you already are fighting the opponent tooth and nail for everything and just despising the game. Someone just outright telling you they are going to cheat is a bit of a dick move.
     
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  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    But one of those things is not like the others. The contents of Army are part of the rules of the game. The fact that CB no longer provides a rules PDF codifies that, since there's no other way you could possibly get the profiles in the first place.
     
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  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Ok that's just a bizarre story. Auto-loss to the guy who stormed out as far as I'm concerned.

    Doesn't matter who's right. You have a dispute, you call the TO, then you accept the TO's ruling. Period. You don't walk out.

    Both were wrong to argue about it instead of calling the TO right away, but the guy who walk out crossed the line 100%.
     
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  12. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    You just said you have a house rule or etiquette in place, what are you even asking then? If you decided to go with a house rule or etiquette, just make sure everyone is aware of it (it certainly was the not the case in your absurd example)

    At this point it is obvious that with those statement you absolutely do not care about the question at hand.

    - - - - -

    Army is a game ressource, just like the rulebook, just like Comlog, just like Spud's hacking tool, except it's an official game ressource, it's part of the rule.

    If you want to make a house rule or etiquette to prohibit, by all mean, but if you refer to my post from 1-2 pages ago, you'll see that the problem you generate greatly outweigh any benefit to letting players use it.
     
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  13. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    No, your opponents factions are not within the rules of the game. Otherwise the wiki would have every models profile. The wiki holds all the rules of this game, and one of the rules is that your models are private information. So once the game begins, it is private. So trying and circumventing that is the same as me bringing weighted dice. Allowed as they are components of the game. But defeat what the rules do explicitly allow and prevent.
     
  14. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    If profile information isn't part of the rules, I'm bringing a list of 10 Jotums to my next game. They're 30 points each and AVA 20.
     
  15. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Click the numbers at the bottom of the page, go to previous page, reread what the people say and you'll see all the arguments.

    It absolutely does not defeat any rules in the game, it's completely different than weighted dice.

    Why would they put profiles on the wiki, when they have an official app that makes it easy to search? Lmao.
     
  16. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I don't think I could make it clearer than @inane.imp response clearly states it earlier, based on what @wes-o-matic also stated earlier.

    - - - - -

    "Consider any piece of information on a player's Army List that is not explicitly Private as Open and knowable to all"

    Open and Private Information does not cover information from other sources than a Player's Army List.

    So information about YOUR Trooper's Cost and SWC is Private but information about A Trooper's Cost and SWC, derived from a different source than your Army List, is neither Open nor Private: rather it is outside of these definitions and as, such, is as freely accessible as etiquette allows.
     
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  17. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    I think that the Strategic Deployment and Rem Driver abilities both have some bits about timing during deployment in their rules.
     
  18. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Less legal as weighted dice in fact. In the rules, army is mentioned once on being allowed to create army lists. So once the list is created, army is done as far as the rules are concerned. You all advocate that the rules must allow it yet all the rules say about army is that is a tool to create lists.
     
  19. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Have read and agree with.
     
  20. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Yup, them, booty and metachemistry have rules about it which makes them the exception to the all at once. Or atleast my understanding of deployment, which is why I targeted @ijw 's statement to ask if the official answer is different than how is understood to be played.
     
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