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Can you use Berserk if you're in a smoke cloud?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Apr 7, 2021.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    A trooper with Berserk and another trooper are inside of a zero-vis zone from a smoke grenade. They are Engaged with each other. The trooper with Berserk can't declare the skill, right, because they don't have LoF?
     
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  2. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Right

    Dropping smoke on yourself is a good way to defend against berserk, or at least right in front of you.
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Yes, and it’s fucking retarded.

    The opponent can blindly CC people, but the opponent cannot not blindly wail at people with no sense of self preservation because that needs eyes or some shit...

    It gets dumber when you consider Taigha Creatures are blind and sense their prey (which explains the Sixth Sense).
    If the Taigha Creature declares Berserk, the opponent can declare Dodge, which makes the Berserk invalid and the opponent dodges on normal rolls.
    The blind Taigha Creature can still declare normal CC Attack but is somehow heavily impaired by the fact that smoke obscures its nonexistent vision...
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How does Dodge invalidate Berserk?
     
  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    The Taigha Creature is no longer meeting the requirements of Sixth Sense and can no longer Berserk in smoke
     
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  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Just give Taigha MSV1. :upside_down_face:
     
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  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    What part of Sixth Sense was allowing Berserk to work?
     
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    If Taigha creature declares Berserk and the opponent declares CC Attack as an ARO.
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Yeah, I get that.

    What is Sixth Sense doing that would make a difference? The only interactions between Sixth Sense and Zero Visibility Zones in N4 are ignoring the -6 MOD to shoot back 'If the user is the target of a BS Attack', and ignoring Dodge MODs.
     
  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    If they're in smoke, the Taigha can't declare Berserk in the first place since LoF requirements are checked at declaration.
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    That too.
     
  12. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I believe the thought is that this "Allows the user to respond to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at them by enemies outside their LoF." triggers in the situation that the Taigha is active and idles for their first skill and the reactive unit then CC Attacks. The Taigha would then be able to declare Berserk due to the SIxth Sense requirements and first bullet point.

    Not saying I agree with the reasoning (finally just diving into N4 and don't trust my N3 memories aren't convoluting things), merely presenting it as I read it
     
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Berserk is a whole order skill.
     
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  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Berserk is an Entire Order Skill, so you can't Idle first.

    But that text from Sixth Sense doesn't help anyway, that just allows you to 'respond'. The rest of the bullet point explains the effect on LoF:
    For the purposes of drawing Line of Fire to the attackers, the user has a 360˚ LoF arc, and if they are in Engaged State, they can draw LoF to attackers outside their Close Combat.​

    The Taigha is engaged in CC, so already has a 360º LoF arc.

    As a general reminder, Sixth Sense in N4 does not lift LoF restrictions, other than facing or seeing out of a close combat.
     
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  15. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Knew I was likely missing something.
    So to answer the OP, Berserk can be declared in a Zero-Vis situation due to Engaged providing LOF to all engaged units?
     
  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    No, because ijw recently ruled that two Engaged troopers don't have LoF to each other when they're inside smoke. It was that ruling which presumably prompted the OP.
     
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  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    As written, no. Whether this is intended behaviour will have to wait for an FAQ.
    • Troopers engaged in CC have a 360° LoF, but only to whatever they are in Silhouette contact with. Therefore, Troopers engaged in CC cannot draw LoF to Troopers or game elements that they are not in Silhouette contact with.
    Breaking it down, being engaged has two effects on your Line of Fire:
    • You gain a 360º arc,
    • Your LoF is limited to things you're in Silhouette contact with.
    It doesn't say that you gain LoF to everything you're in Silhouette contact with, but instead that you have no back arc.
     
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  18. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    This is a subtle distinction from previous editions, where it seemed to be the case that LoF was proactively granted vs targets you were engaged with.
     
  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    It was almost identical:
    Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with.​

    Note that there were even some (rare) rules discussions about whether Dodge was legal in CC within Smoke due to it's Requirement for LoF.
     
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  20. Kuoliainen

    Kuoliainen New Member

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    So, if Zero Vis obscures the LoF, and being in engaged state doesn't enable it, you are also at -3 to dodge while responding to a CC attack in smoke?

    From dodge:

    A -3 PH MOD must be applied to the Dodge Roll in the following circumstances.
    • In ARO, if the Active Trooper is inside ZoC and outside LoF.
     
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