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Private information: Cost and SWC

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WWHSD, Apr 4, 2021.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    When it comes to high-level decisions about tactics, I'd agree with you. When it's very formulaic and solvable - "Is this model more points than this model" - it's just dumb to say "go with the flow!"

    In that case, the right decision is governed entirely on what the relevant number attached to the profile is, and obfuscating that number just makes the game dumber.
     
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  2. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    Access to Army during games (as long as it isn’t creating any delay) seems like something top players could give two shits about. They are going to assume that anyone they are playing are going to know the stuff in their list and the options available to their chosen faction as well as they do and play accordingly.

    Not wanting your opponent to have readily available access to information on the options available to your faction seems like it’s for try hard mid-tier players that are banking on being able to squeeze out the occasional win by out Pokedexing their mid and low tier opponents.

    Getting into the debate over what sort of Army access if any should be permitted during a game is totally outside of the scope of the original rules question in this thread. Judging from the responses to the actual question that I’ve seen so far it seems like that almost everyone agrees that Private Information, when it comes to Cost and SWC, is specific to the troopers in the game and not a ban on general Cost and SWC data.

    The one dissenting opinion seems to be that the meaning of the “Your Troopers’ Cost and SWC” is subjective and each local community will define it for themselves, and that his community considers all Cost and SWC data to be Private Information.

    I was hoping that the original question might get a more official answer but I think I’m going to have to settle for what I’ve gotten so far.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yes, to people who are obsessed with winning to the point that they panic at any (falsely) perceived advantages that I might have. I'm just as likely to make a fuck up or unforced error from either forgetting something or getting it confused with something else as they are, strawman argument of a brand new player being involved not withstanding.

    There's nothing to be empathetic about unless your opponent is obsessing over losing because they forgot something, at which point they need to really take a look at why they're playing the game if they can't stand losing that much. I lost twice tonight, once to a fuck awful crit on an LT, and one because I made a bad call on something that turned out to be pretty important. None of that matters, my opponents won, we had a good game. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. My only disappointment is in none of the 3 games I played did I manage to engineer the opportunity spam the table with Koalas on Armoury.
     
    #123 Triumph, Apr 6, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Except the fact that if you only made the points and SWC of profiles with private information private... you've made it impossible to keep it private. That is a rather daft argument.

    A: "What's the points cost of that Nexus?"
    B: "21/0.5."
    A: "What's the points cost of THAT nexus?"
    B: "I'm not telling, it's private information!"
    A: "Ok, I guess I'm going after that one, then..."

    You keep arguing that the reason it's private is for quadrant control missions. I don't think you have anything to back that up other than your gut feeling. Notice that it's not in the mission rules, nor ITS. It's in the base rules, which means the reason must extend to the base game no matter which mission is being played.

    Therefore, I'm arguing that the reason it's private (for all troopers) is so private information can actually remain private (barring doing something silly like only taking 1 Lt. option in your list and then complaining about it when your opponent figures it out).
     
  5. WyrdGM

    WyrdGM Member

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    I am a new player - I just started looking into the game during lockdown, and have yet to play an actual game. So please, take what I say with a grain of salt and from my own perspective. I'll be using the word 'your' here in a general sense, not directed at anyone specific.

    As I understand it, the information on YOUR list, cost and swc, is private, but because the army builder is the only source of that information, and for several of the rules, that it (Army builder) cannot be private information, and because most units have multiple profiles, you may be able to deduce, sometimes with near-perfect accuracy, but at the same point, it's still just a deduction, and a clever opponent can plan for that and infer something else.

    However, in regards to the source of those deductive powers - long hours of study, long hours of playing, or being able to review potential options - I want to point out the end result is the same - if you feel one is cheating, such as using the army builder, but not the others, you might ask yourself why especially if you allow exceptions.

    Would you be fine, or not fine, with a new player trying to learn that way? Are all of you fantastic teachers who are endlessly patient and completely accurate?
    Would you be fine, or not fine, with a player with a learning disability using it? I, personally, have not had the best memory since a motorcycle accident a couple of decades back. For those who say memorization is a skill, it is true but hampered by certain core functions... Does that make you better at the game? Or just lucky?

    I feel if your argument is that deduction via memory is fine, but deduction via provided rules is not (so long as it does not slow the game any more than other standard learning/actions/discussions) is a bit ableist, definitely exclusionary, and comes off as elitist - I can win because I have had the time to memorize more than you. It sounds like you are looking for the gotchas.

    If your issue is, as Triumph stated (Which I feel is valid, but pointless as will be explained), the fear that someone will move 14.5 points into an area he has 13.5 points in, and secure victory that way... well, you have the same ability to deduce their points, as they do yours. Because, as has been pointed out elsewhere, while it may not be exact, there are definitely some people out there that study these profiles like it's the best cake they ever had.

    If your issue is you don't want your LT found... well, that only works against the inexperienced players.

    If your issue is that rote memorization has substituted skill and tactics as to a method of winning, then of course you don't want someone to have access to a list of potentials.

    Just my 0.02

    Edit Revisions:
    1. Added "(Army builder)" in the second paragraph for clarification purposes.
    2. Edited "what your LT" to "want your LT".
     
    #125 WyrdGM, Apr 6, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  6. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    I have never encountered this phrase before and it's wonderful.
     
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  7. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    THANK YOU for saying this. I like you already. Some will hold that against you though ;)

    I can even somewhat understand the feeling of being "cheated" or it being "unfair" that "I've spent long hours pouring over profiles and somebody just snaps out Army and knows the same things I had to work so hard for!", but ultimately you (the general you) brought it onto yourself and now you're gatekeeping against people gaining the same advantage which means you're losing yours and cannot lord your "superior skill" over them anymore. Boo hoo.
     
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  8. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    @Triumph these three quotes seem to me to exist in some tension with one another. I'm going to try to illustrate why with a fakey-fake conversation:

    *nods* Yeah, I'm with you, I know some points off the top of my head and I've only been in the game for a couple of years now, but odds are I'll never remember them all even if I try, which I won't. So knowing exact point costs is more like a thing you pick up coincidentally, not a thing you learn for tactical advantage, right?

    Oh. Well. Okay, so that makes sense, you'd want to know some exact points of certain units to help you win games, by making the right plays using that information. I thought you were arguing against being able to make play decisions based on precise knowledge of points, but maybe I was wrong. This certainly seems like an effective strategy for winning using precise knowledge though, so that's cool right?

    ...well now I'm just confused.

    I'm personally not going to have fun facing a player who does what you described in that second quote, regardless of whether they're going from memory or using Army, because I eyeball things based on my best guesses and play the mission if I'm not certain. So of those three players (math prodigy, nerd with app, or me) who's doing it right? Based on your responses, the math prodigy is a good player, the guy with the app is a cheater, and I'm...a filthy casual, I guess? I genuinely can't tell what you want people to do, other than don't use Army at all during games.

    With regards to point values, how would you suggest people play without referencing Army? Like...what's the "right" way?

    If I made a quadrant control quick-reference sheet that listed all the infiltrating/fd/ad/hd troops by faction and their points, then brought it out at the table, is that OK? If not, is it OK if I memorize that info, and why? Is it bad sportsmanship for someone who has memorized that info (regardless of method) to use it when making in-game choices? If not, what's different about looking it up quickly in Army?

    I'm not taking the piss, this is a genuine query.
     
  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Can somebody please explain me why this thread has devolved to the mess I read full of personal attacks?

    By the way personal attacks are prohibited.

    please calm down, collect your thoughts and either engage in a civil discussion, or don't.
     
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Triumph was told his interpretation wasn't in accordance with the rules and then he called everyone else cheaters.

    People are trying to explain to him that his position is, to put it in my local vernacular, fucking stupid. Largely they're doing so much more politely than I would be, so I think cudos is due to @wes-o-matic and @Sabin76.

    The mods haven't taken anyone to task for posting personal attacks, and community moderation is just another way to describe "gatekeeping" so it's a bad alternative.
     
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Actually we have, you can spot people with strikethrough names occasionally, but it is for a couple of days to a week usually, we rarely ban someone permanently, and for that to happen there must be a really good reason.

    We do appreciate though when a discussion is done in a civil way.
     
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  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Oh, I'm completely in agreement here. I think with the exception of profiles where there is a points difference created only by skills, equipment, etc. that is Private Information, points values should be open information. That way you don't get @Sabin76's "that Nexus" situation either, because all Nexuses would have private point costs.

    Looking at the rules isn't the same as looking at a strategy guide. Army can't tell you how to use the information about another player's army, only what it is. You will still have to make the good decision on your own, you'll just have all the information you need to do it.

    Is relying on a rulebook outside help? Is relying on your own army list outside help? When you start gatekeeping what "outside help" means, you can draw any number of arbitrary lines that make you feel like you have skill and your opponents don't. That's peak scrub mentality.
     
  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Word. Wanted to use exactly this but forgot the name of that SF player and site. Thanks for linking to it. Damn, I'm old.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Dammit, we just hit Sorkin's Law.
     
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  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    "As an online discussion about a competitive game grows longer, the probability of someone sharing a David Sirlin article approaches 1"?
     
  16. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    If ijw would have answered the question on page one there wouldn’t have been 7 pages of arguments about using Army in games.

    Instead there would have been 7 pages of arguments about whether or not ijw has the authority to answer questions or not. ;)
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I knew it started with a W.
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Alright, I must admit I am not following this at all.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The "math prodigy" doesn't exist. He's a made up person, the average wargamer isn't going to meet someone with a photographic memory playing Infinity or the titular character from the Mentalist using their "mental palace" to memorise profiles. The math prodigy is made up by the guy trying to read their way through the army app in the middle of the game to uncover their opponent's private information because they to some extent fancy themselves as the math prodigy but don't have the ability to be them, because nobody does. Not me, not you, not the rest of the people in my local community.

    I don't know if filthy casual is the best description for it, but if you were talking about someone who makes decisions based on what they remember and what they think is the right thing to do and doesn't feel compelled to need to dig through army to uncover some perfect plan and is content to play the game and live with their decisions right or wrong, sure. They're that person. In a similar vein I enjoyed Warmachine much more before they introduced unlimited pre-measuring. You made calls on movement and shots, and if you lived with the result good or bad. The game existed in a state of uncertain positioning flux, even the literal best players in the world would and could make an unforced error on judging distances. Once total pre measuring was in though there was no more jockeying for position and people straight up knew they could stand somewhere and put their opponent 0.01mm out of range and it made things far less interesting when your opponent was solving your turn on their turn.


    It's really simple, if you're not using the app to manage your list just leave it alone. I use print outs generally, other people in my meta use the app more frequently but I have trust in them that they're not using it to double check the points value of my units or to discover which Lei Gong profile has CoC.


    Cheat sheets, just as bad don't do it.

    Memorising info is fine.

    Why is memorising info different from using army? Because you are not Patrick Jane or Nikola Tesla with perfect recall, nobody is. Things are still uncertain because you can and will fuck stuff up, as do I. Things you remember today you may get wrong next week or vice versa. I am here to play against you, the decisions you make both right and wrong. I'm not here to play against your poor attempt at being Deep Blue with a pre calculated set of moves that you think you should deploy against my army every single game.

    Uncertainty leads to variety in decision making. If you do not have perfect information you will make different decisions when finding yourself in the same or similar situations between different games. Given perfect information, such as warmachine's pre measuring, players very much lean towards playing all games with standing in the optimal position of being 0.01mm out of danger.


    This has already been answered in this thread. Yes, new players are treated differently and not expected to play the same while they learn. In the same vein I also don't treat the kids in my meta who are on the spectrum the same as I treat my regular opponents who have been playing for a long time now. There's one kid who will literally say fewer than 15 words during a 2 hour game, and mostly communicates by pointing at stuff. I don't give a shit what he does on his phone or if he looks up my private information, if I'm playing against him I'm smart enough to know that we're going to be playing a completely different game to normal Infinity.
     
    #139 Triumph, Apr 7, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Doesn't this ironically lead to exactly the situation you want to avoid in the first place? When people aren't able to look up information on demand, they become greatly incentivized to memorize it instead, which creates the "Deep Blue" mindset that you're talking about. When you give players open access to profile lists, you put everyone on a level playing ground. Things will still be uncertain because it's still a dice game at the end of the day, but players' decision-making will be more important than memorizing profiles.

    To compare back to another genre of games again, there's a huge difference between 1) knowing the frame data of a move, 2) knowing when to use the move, and 3) being able to execute the move when you need to. Good competitive games are built around minimizing the difficulty / value of 1 while maximizing player agency in 2 and 3.
     
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