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Making 15 the baseline

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Triumph, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'd be doing it even without Tactical Window in the picture. The weakness CR only warbands like Shaolin run into is if your opponent dodges your odds of inflicting damage plummets through the floor. Having a cheap gun with a reasonable damage stat that allows you to fire, even on 10s, to threaten the ability to contest dodge rolls makes them a much more dangerous opponent. For a couple of points I find that to be a drastically useful upgrade.
     
  2. SpectralOwl

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    Typically I'd use Smoke and CC to deal with high-value units the opponent actually wants to preserve when I played around with Bakunin Morlocks in N3. It's a little less effective as the spearhead of a major attack than it would be with an Assault Pistol, but their defensive and midfield trade performance with only the Chain Rifle, plus the fact that forgoing the Assault Pistol usually allowed you to bring one more of the things, led me to just spam a few more unless I was a Warcor from hitting 300pts. Being able to really saturate the DZ and midfield with templates was too valuable back then due to typical opposing list compositions.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I've definitely noticed that warbands who also carry a non DTW gun are far more order efficient, they frequently score kills when their opponent starts dodging on 1 dice to avoid the template which often negates the need to dance around trying to close the gap with smoke to even leverage their CC stat. Varangians are a really good example of this.
     
  4. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    I dont think a BS10 (or even less) warband can be considered "order efficient" using a non DTW...
     
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  5. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    It all resolves around what you expect warbands to do on the board. Personally I do follow a rule of cheaper is better. Let's say I can dig out 25pts. for 5 warbands to add to group 2, just to have some bodies to throw under the buss and keep the main group thus much safer. 25pts is like a single MI or cheap Skirmisher... Coming from Nomads I know for a fact that 35+ points would be a cost of something far more effective, thus more difficult to make a cut for me. 15 orders cap or not, it's not like it became easier to find points to field stuff. Decisions are still difficult when list building. I'm totally cool with CR Warbands and appreciate how cheap they are especially compared to Shotgun and F2F capable counterparts. Instead of trying hard to change the game, why not just embrace it? Why even display an opinion supporting removal of stuff that people actually use? Ain't more options better for everyone?
     
  6. redeemer

    redeemer Well-Known Member

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    yeah I'm with nazroth on this one it is bad enough that CB remove half of the best sectorials/armies let's not give them bad ideas to remove the rest of the good stuff Morlocks and Shaolin monks play essential roles in YJ and nomad lits
     
  7. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Let them eat repeaters

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    Warbands warp the game around them. The only reason to keep them as they are is that they serve as a answer to tags. But if TAGs are a issue I'd rather TAGS be changed alongside warbands.
     
  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't miss it at all. LSGs seem to be around the 12-gauge mark and anyone who's ever fired one would know the idea of catching 5 adults in the spread let alone killing multiple is pure fantasy. Frankly their stats are all over the place. High damage representing the combined energy of all the shot, but then a huge impact area showing the dispersion of the shot. The shotgun templates should hit like a feather duster or better yet disappear completely, especially for the light shotgun. To achieve a meaningful area spread with a shotgun you use pellets so light you can shoot an old lawyer in the face with it without killing him.

    [​IMG]

    The kind of propellant advances needed to make shot like that as lethal as it is in Infinity over such an area would turn the actual rifles into doomsday weapons.

    Yet somehow they are priced like they would be missing out on something if they didn't have their gun. Or more accurately, the ones without a gun have been priced like they've sacrificed half their value on the table, which we all know they haven't.
     
  9. redeemer

    redeemer Well-Known Member

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    how would you change the tags?
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Honestly if I only had the 12pt Morlocks I'd probably still take them.

    Well if one of them had an EM CCW at least.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    A monk that turns a corner with a chain rifle vs a PH12 ARM2 model that dodges has a 22% chance to wound something. That same monk if it paid 2pts to be equipped with a LSG as well, jumps to 55% to kill the same model. It's pretty significant. If they were armed with an assault pistol like a morlock they're on 65% odds

    It's more order efficient than trying to chase down that model with an extra order after it dodges the chain rifle and likely doesn't die. Warbands with multi armaments are significantly less likely to need to reach CC to kill or wound targets than those without, so by that nature they're more order efficient.
     
    #91 Triumph, Apr 4, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  12. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    Or you can use another order and CC the enemy, raising that % even more.

    show me your maths, i'm not getting that results...

    PS: Morlocks have BS11, they know properly how to use a gun. I will never pay a gun for BS10 people if i have the option. (Thanks god Kosmoflot Varegians have CR only option...)
     
  13. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I know people compare TAGs to tanks, but they're not, really just really big HI. Think about it this way. In the world of Infinity, an AP rifle is probably firing high heat or sabot rounds the same as a tank would fire in order to pierce another tank. Likewise standard rifles and pistols would evolve to deal with evolving armor, kevlar, steel plate and ceramics will either be obsolete or evolved as well. Tanks are generally afforded thicker and heavier armor due to being allowed to sit and just take hits, aka be a tank. We call TAGs Tanks because they can take more hits than the rest of the troops in the game but the evolution of a TANK isnt in its ability to dodge shots, quickly take cover or deal with melee threats. A tank is built to reposition for the use of it's long gun and take hits. Because no tank is dodging a missile or an incoming warthog even if the Abrams can over 45mph on all terrain it's still not juking thousands of feet/second projectiles. A TAG is not a tank but it is a soldier better able to deal with a tank. And I really think missiles in this game that we've seen are solely the shoulder mounted kind that can mess up a TAG but would do little to an Infinity Tank, an evolved version of an Abrams for example. I believe the idea behind Infinity being about Spec Ops and still having something as big and loud as TAG. Is that the TAG for all intents and purposes is not a vehicle. It has hands to manipulate the environment around it like grabbing objectives, climbing, opening doors etc. Sure wall thickness in the game is off cause probably everyone could shoot right through every wall as military metal is as far as I've seen stronger than structural metal but it's a game. TAGs can dodge because they're built to model the movements of a soldier and they can fight a melee combatant before they can plant a D Charge on the TAG, tanks design just went in the direction of better armor. I honestly wish throwing and pushing was a thing in this game.

    As for melee attacks in this game fucking people up, well, honestly we have to consider that a blade strikes a body far less often than a rifle fired rounds. So the technology in a rifle is built around housing and firing MANY projectiles. Perhaps what we arent considering about CCWs is that their technology has also evolved aside from just the mono and exp descriptions. Like how does an AP CCW have the same effect as an AP round? Unless is the AP CCW also high heat or some sort of sabot technology. Or, perhaps like a vibrablade from star wars. We are all starting to understand the science of this universe is really nothing but vibrations. High heat rounds vibrate in many frequencies yet lasers that pulsate at certain frequencies give off no heat but they target any opposing frequency you want blasting rust of steel or graphite off paper doing no harm to the materials they arent dialed to. A blade in the future may very well be a vibrablade meant to disrupt certain elemental bonds like carbon or iron for example. Where as AP may be able to project two frequencies at once, one for carbon or some other common element in flesh and standard armor and another for tesium. Shock could also include a frequency targeting water, which causes a horrible miniature explosion at the wound site, not necessarily explosive but that change in pressure of water molecules being separated into their gases at the wound site could very well cause shock. Anyone skillful enough to get close, not hurt themselves and just touch you with these things will be deadly as fuck, especially to armored soldiers. I'm glad this topic came up because I love the emerging science and tech proving our universe is nothing but a projection of different frequencies of energy.
     
    #93 wuji, Apr 4, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
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  14. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I would just like to point out that the concievability of a monofilament sword would have to be the combination of several technologies. Material sciences combined with multiple frequency projections that that are not in the infrared range. Meaning something strong enough to be effective against everything and not break and flexible enough in its capacity to transmit a frequency/ies from its core to its surface and also not be destroyed by the frequency its projecting.

    In this case, I'm surprised we havent seen energy projected shields yet. I'm more inclined to believe Zero G terrain and climbing plus are utilizing gravimetric boots or harnesses for troops like a Shikami. More deep vibration energy science in Infinity please.
     
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  15. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    You misunderstand - I definitely take sub-10-point warbands in lists when it makes sense for what I’m trying to do. What I’m really saying is that I don’t think their point cost accurately reflects their value on the table. Having more bodies on the field, threatening clusters of unarmored foes, being cheap enough to afford to make trades, having CC threat against tougher enemies, frequently having smoke, etc, etc is worth well more than 5 points. In many cases, “upgrading” to a rifle actually makes the model less effective, while ~doubling its cost. Units like Morlocks are relatively uncommon in having access to a set of guns that are well-tuned to the role they fill.
     
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  16. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    Sure thing, still cheap warbands are far from being the worst offenders when it comes to points cost balance of the game. With 15 troops cap these are not as prominent as they used to, now when you're being tempted with fielding much more durable and/or toolboxy stuff instead. I fear we would never see Warbands fielded in decent AVA if they got more expensive. I know I wouldn't field one when I could field an order monkey for the same points cost. If I need a gun wielding order I can go for Moderators - here's where basic LI comes in, so I do believe making WBs more expensive would do them harm and encroach on a different type of unit territory. CB is what it is, but they have this game pretty well laid up when it comes to units. Am far from being a blind fanboy, but one gotta give merit to CB where it's deserved and I wholeheartedly believe they got cheap Warbands costed right - especially now with 15 Orders cap that bombed cheap body spam abuse.
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yeah, it’s very possible that with the 15 model limit, a lot of what I said is moot, because irregular orders are actually a downside, and it’s no longer automatically an advantage to take the max number cheap models possible.

    I still think that there’s some sort of design flaw around warbands with real guns vs ones with chain rifles, though. I know I never want to pay for that upgrade, and I basically never see other players doing so, either, outside of some very specific exceptions like Morlocks.
     
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  18. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Let them eat repeaters

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    Make them cost more if they become a issue.
     
  19. redeemer

    redeemer Well-Known Member

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    TAGS are underpowered as they are since N3 and the N4 changes are not helping much thus far
     
  20. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    You dont consider the ARM, CC and TA bumps good enough?
     
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