Adding such bulky bodies to an already 99% stationary fireteam will make them even less likely to be played actively.
As others said above, the problem is not overall MO power level, but that the internal balance within MO is already broken. I welcomed new MO but sorry this is close to boring in roster building. Tik with AP HMG completely beats down Seraph. Cheap Teutons dominate in point ratio. Out of date Hospitallers and Crusade fireteam. They say they're biggest Knightly order though they don't join any other fireteam or aren't cheap. At least Hospitaller doctor should have been a kind of wildcard, instead of stupid Infirmarer. Mendoza seemed interesting at first but who would use you him instead of Holy sepulchre or Tik? He got shorter fire range, got not stealth(KotHS got this, funny), and when you're not first turn and couldn't forward deploy him at ease, it's hard to earn back his points. No creative fireteam options. Coadjutors are just copy-past of fusiliers with much less options. Then at least they could have aggressive supporter role by having Fireteam:Duo with themselves or Remotes. or 'Knight and Squire' Fireteam:Duo with Knights. Black friar are not allowed in any Haris or Duo. Adding more Lt competitors to Jeanne was good decision, but Knight commander are allowed to join Coadjutors only, seriously? then why was he called front commander in articles? No CoC or Counterintelligence or somewhat useful when not Lt Overall, Staples are too obvious. no interesting or serious competitors within Sectorial, no interesting creative fireteam options.
id consistently run mendoza over sepulcher if he had stealth right now its kinda rough to find him room or to place and protect him if i dont go first
I'm just curious, Can you help me understand what would be considered interesting competitors or creative fireteams? I'm really into JSA lately and have never really been interested in PanO even though I've always been fond of MO. I always interpreted them as shoot first then ask questions with your sword later sort of faction, never needing smoke because they have BS 13 or 14 on almost everything. Just help me understand their competitors in MO and interesting fireteams.
For real, IA is basically being propped by Shang Ji-sus and his three wise men Krit, Gong, and Jeong.
As I said, although MO can win games the problem is Internal balance. They can win games by shooting. Then why play MO instead of other PanO factions? because just knights are shooting guns? I'm not saying knights should be melee monsters. MO's not thematically intergrated and efficient roster building is almost same(Cheap core, Teutons, Tik or KotHS, etc) as obvious choices beatdown would-be-competitors. I already presented examples on my post above. Give Hospitaller Doctor wildcard option as it's more thematically right to their order and it'd give more options to roster building. Aggressive supporter team by Coadjutor Duo or Coadjutor+REM or knight and squire duo. Currently they are just minor copy of fusiliers. Interesting would-be-competitors like Seraph(Flying TAG and auxbot) and Mendoza(A father with fire) are underachievers now. I'm not saying don't take them. They are not attractive gamewise, apart from gorgeous model.
I like the idea of Hospitaller Doctor supporting the other orders. As he is quite expensive, it would also be no power creep. Infirmarers however would have to be removed entirely or take the place of Trauma Docs. Few people would pick a 33 (better 35 to utilize the premium BS with the Multi Rifle) doc for their fireteam if there is an option for 25 points.
I'd take the upgrade almost every time. Having a Doc that can survive a surprise Template covering the link, as well as fight alone after tagging along up the table, is actually very valuable.
So where is the difference then from the allegedly unplayable Hospitaller Core? From what I read in this thread and others like it: HMG is appreciated: Hospitaller HMG Doctor Upgrade almost every time: Hospitaller Doctor KoS KHD is a staple HI Core is too expensive: 1 Order Sergeant link filler So one slot left which could be Konstantinos (24) for MSV2 or a Hospitaller BSG (29)
The shooting capabilities on common stuff is actually very similar to jsa. Specially considering the daiyokai is core linkable. I use him in the exact situations I use a KoJ , while he is a point lower BS , the NWI goes a long way to making lost exchanges forgivable. The panzerfaust shots also ensure he has an aro up to 32 or a burst 2 active shot in case something reveals outside of 24 so I'm not on atrocious odds. Overall I love seeing msv1 snipers with jsa, because I can throw smoke down and step out with the daiyokai. Force them to shoot me through the smoke for -6, and additional -3 for cover . Then shoot them back on on full bs due to sixth sense . Something you can't do in MO , you just cross yourself and deus vult
The Seraph getting AP on his guns would be an instant fix for both profiles IMO and I don't think it would still b Infirmarers are already pretty much removed. One of the worst units on the PanO roster.
There's a number of reasons why Hospis don't work well right now. In my experience of running them there's a couple of things I find lacking. 1. It's difficult to have a well balanced list with the link. The ML KoJ is very, very expensive and in this case it doesn't even out by being in cheap linkable troops. So your main ARO is tied to your 5 man link. 2. Which brings me to the second issue. If you run Hospis you will go out to the midfield with the whole link. And this is not that powerful because the opponent can slice the pie in his turn and you lose a bit too much. They are much less tanky than 19 point Teutons, who can dodge engage really well and have templates for defensive. 3. Your HMG is going to be the main hitter and for the price you pay it's not stellar anymore. And can no longer deal with Tags. 4. The cost reducing wildcards are easy pickings in losing you the bonuses fast. An OS halfway up the table is just going to die. 5. Most of your expensive dudes do specific tasks and feel like dead weight most of the time. 6. Boring to play I've given them a lot of tries, in N3 and 4, Joan and Joanless. They just always feel underwhelming in most things they do. They even feel weaker in N4. You no longer have the B3 BS23 BSG with an impact template that usually did most of the killing and hacking is significantly more dangerous, while none of their issues got addressed. Having Mendoza link for some 52 points for example would make them a lot more attractive, in core or harris because you'd get that close range killer they now don't have.
As I said before I feel there is not much experimentation and creativity with the new MO yet, personally I really like the 2BS FO Hospitalers and SF FO KoJ haris as an option, Duos with Buleteers is another option I do not see been discussed a lot. In general I feel that many people think the theme of Military orders is "knights!" and not a proper military formation were the knight are the assault/ specialized element and can range from the mass of the formation to a few specialized or support elements.
I really think alot of these opinions will change later, maybe even all. I'd try to look at all the fireteams as the same fireteam, because they all essentially function exactly the same, can have MSV2 and Knights and Doctors. Done. What is more appealing to me is choosing from all the solo Knights. Theres 4 and each does a different tactic and two can be specialists. Santiago's, Montesa's, Mendoza and KotHS are all mad unique. I'd be trying to consider how to support those troops with my fireteams. Only thing I'd change is the Seraph honestly. No HMG only AP Spitfire profiles with that +1 NP choosing to get the bot or not and add Berserk to really give it some flavor.
Maybe I'm missing something but I thought that it was the Special Crusade Core Fireteam that was being called out rather than the Hospitaller Core. The cheapest option there is 156 points with Joan (45), 3 x Combi or Boarding Shotgun Hospitallers (3x29), and Konstaninos (24).
I wouldn't mind seeing the Knight Commander get a CoC profiles and the ability to join more than just a Crossier Core. Maybe don't make him a full wildcard but let him count as an Order Sergeant. Joan needs some better Fireteam options. The Crusade core is just weird and seems overly restrictive with no real upside. It would also be nice to get some sort of irregular troops to feel like you are getting something from Joan's Inspiring Leadership ability. Even something that was AVA 2 and not too pricey seems like it would be a nice option. Maybe models that were impetuous and could drop repeaters or other deplorables since smoke in PanO seems to be something not likely to happen.
How bout a unique piece of gear thats the tech answer to repeaters . A null repeater , they just generate a zone of no hacking within it's bubble
