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Hard Limits vs Soft Limits

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by quaade, Apr 1, 2021.

  1. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

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    The 15 unit cap is clearly a soft limit means to make soam lists impossible. The problem is that as a soft limit it can easily be broken.
    Case

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15)
    GHULAM Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
    GHULAM (Number 2) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    YARA HADDAD (Lieutenant, Strategic Deployment) AP Marksman Rifle / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Spitfire, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34)
    MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25)
    SHAKUSH AP Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 58)
    [​IMG] SHAKUSH PILOT Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 0)
    AL-DJABEL Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    RAGIK Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]4
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    BARID (Forward Observer) Rifle, Pitcher, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)

    6 SWC | 297 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This army, despite its limitations and shoddy nature, I'm sure someone can do way better in making one than me as I just threw this one together, has, with a 15 model limit, 19 Orders, 23 with Impetuous. This is clearly spam and breaks the intention of the 15 model cap.

    It also has Fireteam, making those Orders last even further as the Fireteam of Ghulams can effectively be given 11 Orders while the two Muyibs and the Shakush can still act due to their Tactical Awareness.

    Then there are further four Muttawis that effectively have 8 Orders just in themselves.

    I like the intent of the 15 model cap as I said. I also see it as a soft limit and as I've shown one that can easily be broken. I would much rather see a hard limit that said, "Regular Order + Irregular Order + LT Order = max 15 Orders. As that makes the spam list entirely impossible.

    Humans will always go for the Path of Least Resistance (PoLR) when they think something out. That's just how the brain works. And with PoLR I mean the easiest way and having effectively 23 Orders is by far easiest.
     
  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    ...did you just assert that players will always run 23 order lists in N4?
     
  3. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone noticed since N4, we have more and more people saying or implying that they "solved" Infinity?

    It seems way too early in N4 to say such declarative statements. Especially since so few games have been played worldwide...
     
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  4. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    The time Infinity felt the most “solved” to me was playing into Ariadna camo-spam at the end of N2.
     
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  5. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    Put Yara and the Muyibs in group two, move the Barid to group one and now you’ve got a core and a Haris. Give at least some of those Mutts Smoke grenades and split them between the groups.

    You’ll still end up being a little light on specialists and your Core is kind of useless as anything other than order generating group of cheerleaders but you’ll have some fun pieces to play with in there.

    This list would probably be better off dropping the whole “how many orders can I cram in” gimmick to fill a few holes. It doesn’t really seem to be making a strong case for being able to exceed 15 orders being a problem.
     
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  6. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Don’t talk sense. This is the Interwebz.
     
  7. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

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    No, I said it was the easiest, and by following the Path of Least Resistance those who can, and are of a competitive mindset, will be drawn towards it just like they were drawn toward spam lists in N3.

    Did you notice before you made your derogatory ad hominem based on Dunning Kruger that it never said: "N4 is solved..." I said, "this is how human nature is."

    When you make something if you base it on the wishful thinking of how you imagine people are you will be disappointed. You have to base it on how people actually work psychologically. Even though you dislike it since how people actually work is immensely different from how people like to think they work.

    Just like you imagine that you say one thing where you put me down while expressing that you think highly arrogantly and as the sole arbiter of how objective reality is since I never said any of the things you imply I said.
     
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    So.... you didn't claim to have solved Infinity... you claimed to have solved human nature?

    How many games of N4 have you played, and how many of your opponents used the list design philosophy that you've decided competitive players will be drawn towards?
     
  9. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    For me a "soft limit" is replacing the 15 model cap with a sliding scale that penalizes you in increments as you take more and more guys, rather than a "15 models = 15+ orders" workaround.

    Infinity doesn't feel solved, but yes I do think the armies are feeling a little more samey. But thats the common outcome of taking a system and eliminating some aspect of it - it now has less elements than before so there will be less variety. Will eliminating spam be counterbalanced by making certain units playable now that weren't before? Maybe on the micro scale of individual units, but on the larger scale of armies they do feel a little more like "15 order toolboxes" for better or worse.
     
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  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Do you have a citation for that?
    I would like to know where you have such insider information, in order to be so adamant in your position that this was not intended by CB and clearly CB meant 15 order limit and not 15 models?
     
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  11. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    The main issue with 20 orders lists was not just the number of orders, but also the sheer resilience you get by spamming bodies.
    Also, spam of Impetuous, tactical awareness and NCO shenanigans are kept in check by what units they're available too, whereas in old spam list you could pretty much use your orders on whatever you wanted as long as you could afford it.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I agree with @Triumph that the sheer amount of tactical awareness, nco, and +1 Lt order handed out in the N4 transition clearly shows that CB did not intend 15 orders to be a completely hard cap.
     
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  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Aside from the factions who used numbers to help vs other handicaps, like Ariadna, which have no LT (+1 Order) and very few TacAware units (UKR and Antipodes only come to mind, each AVA1 where you can get both, in Vanilla).
     
  14. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    The problem I’m seeing with the original poster’s thesis is that it starts out

    1. It’s possible to have more than 15 orders in a list.
    2. It’s obvious that tournament players will try this out.
    and then makes the jump through:
    3. It’s obvious that more orders, even impetuous orders, are better.
    4. Somehow CB didn’t realize the difference between “a maximum of 15 troopers in your army list” and “a maximum of 15 orders”.
    especially when “a maximum of 15 orders” would make impetuous almost completely pointless to take. And every list in the game has a lieutenant so every 15 trooper list has 16 orders.

    Does it feel like the fact that sync models don’t count against the combat group limits is also cheating?
     
  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Well, that's alleviated by the sheer amount of line troopers who have profiles with a marker state (some even with infiltration).
    It's trivial for Ariadna players to have 20+ camo markers and an invisible list.

    Pair this with Uxia, Rape Bear, SAS and Spetsnaz Parachutists and Ariadna can trivially deal with high ARM units and TAG's as well as ignore hacking and largely defensive links.
    Ariadna is a very strong army and a lot of people are sleeping on it, which is largely due to the coof preventing real tournaments, they don't need to cheat out orders to the same level as other armies.

    I could see a good argument for Ariadna sectorials though, where I wish CB would be more inclined to do very powerful sectorial exclusive profiles and even units, rather than the current wave of cheap core link + wild card gunner.
     
    #15 Zewrath, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Oh, it’s definitely not evenly distributed, and there are certainly armies that could use a little more design work to comfortably function in the new edition.
     
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  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I too would like to see the focus shifted in that direction.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    *Looks meaningfully at Nomads and a chunk of NA2*

    Moreover, the ability to get around the 15 order cap is now a deliberate design point: it's no coincidence that the only Tac Aware in Nomads is on TAGs and the only NCO is on MI. The result is that Nomads will struggle to build the sort of list the OP is describing, that's a factional weakness that balances against strengths elsewhere.

    So yeah, it's certainly a soft cap: but it's not as soft for all factions or list archetypes as others.
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I find the NCO's presence on a unit isn't really about what weight class they sit in, it's more about how easy can get get bonus LT orders and how easy is it for them to get into a link they can use it to move a heavy hitter around. It's fairly easy to juggle the NCO use for Move-Moves.
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    My point is more that they're restricted in choice. They're certainly useful profiles but they're not as ubiquitous as other options. This point of difference is something that the soft cap enables: you can't get around it by spamming Morlocks.
     
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