In list building in anticipation of actually getting MO on the table, I’m 90% on board. I love the new Teutons (although I’d rather see a higher AVA). I’m happy to see that LT level 2 and NCO have made their way into MO. My biggest area of curiosity is why core teams in MO seem allergic to HMGs. I know hospitallers have them, but they don’t do mixed fireteams. Why not give the knights of justice an hmg or allow a hospitaller to wildcard into other core teams? The reason I mention this is that MO has no way to limit visibility. So, to do things, they have to knock the enemy down. The core linked hmg is kind of the staple to do this.
Although I find running TAGs in the current environment questionable at best, I will point out the BS15 Mimetic AP HMG on a Tikbalang puts up better F2F odds against anything non MSV than a BS13 base core linked HMG.
Probably to make them get up close and personal. IMHO core linked HMGs are probably too prevalent anyway - that and the over abundance of mixed teams being a mistake.
Consider also the fact that the widespread use of "elite wildcard trooper with a heavy weapon in cheapleader core" design - and how it makes different armies play increasingly similar - is being complained about a lot. An army needs tools to deal with any threats, but they don't need to be the same tools as in every other army out there.
It's similar to JSA: you can't have both blade wielding fanatics and easily available high BS long range gun fighters. It would kind of break the theme.
Merc Sectorials "Hold my beer" VALKYRIE Heavy Shotgun, Grenades / Heavy Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 35) BOLT (Multispectral Visor L1) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31) ORC Varuna Div. (Stealth], Terrain [Aquatic/Jungle]) Feuerbach / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) ORC Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) SEÑOR MASSACRE Breaker Combi Rifle, Eclipse Grenades, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 28) 4.5 SWC | 170 Points Open in Infinity Army GROUP 1 5 1 ZÚYǑNG (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Machine Gun / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (1.5 | 37) BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12) BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12) BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12) BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12) GROUP 2 2 2 2 McMURROUGH Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades, Smoke Grenades / AP + DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27) SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 36) HÚLÁNG (Forward Deployment [+8"], Minelayer]) Submachine Gun(+1B), E/M Grenades, D-Charges, Crazykoala / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 42) KUM Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5) 1.5 SWC | 195 Points Open in Infinity Army GROUP 1 5 MOBILE BRIGADA Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 40) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) VOSTOK FTO (Mimetism [-6]) Mk12(+1 Dam) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 44) TSYKLON Feuerbach, Pitcher / PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 36) GROUP 2 2 1 1 SEÑOR MASSACRE Boarding Shotgun, Eclipse Grenades, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 26) WOLFGANG AMADEUS MULTI Rifle(+1B), Chain-colt / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 35) McMURROUGH Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades, Smoke Grenades / AP + DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27) 2.5 SWC | 228 Points Open in Infinity Army Bonus points if you realised the last one is fucking Nomads not Mercs
For real you could stick a BS13 HMG in JSA and my response would just be, meh, and move on. The shooting power scale has crept significantly in N4. It'd be hard for me to be freaked out by a basic bitch core linked HMG in JSA when there's shit like the linking Kriza and the Vostok LMAOBRRTing their way across the table or the Grenzer or Bolt snipers doing their BS19 ARO shenanigans.
In my musings and games with MO (won a local tourney last week) there's virtually no list I would play without a Tik. It's both probably too powerful and without alternatives (5 man HI link is a bad substitute and the KotHS HMG is meh firepower). Since it's a badly designed sectorial the staples of your gameplay most probably won't be HI, with the exception of Teutons. It's the Tik, all versions of Trinitarians and a HRL Blackfriar in a link. It's not flexible and CB has no idea how to balance them. But, they are at least quite strong now, just not for the reasons everyone wants them to be. I'd argue you'll have more luck in running more MO HI in Svarl than MO because of more cheap orders, not being locked into a Tag and better, more flexible links.
While Starmada, for example has likables HMG, the guys with it aren't the ones with high CD, BLI or wounds. Ramah has pretty much the same problem, even hassasin. If you want a heavy platform for HMG or similar you have to go with the TAG option, the Solo HI or the HI core fireteam. Maybe the Corbus idea here will be: you can have a HMG with fireteam bonuses, but fragile, or a HMG without fireteam bonuses in a hard guy. I find a easy way to bring balance into the game and to do other weapons as spitfire shyne a little. Teutons, more alike as the old magisters as the old teutons:D, are now a superprofile :) with only minors changes: good job here. On paper at least. I need a moment to "taste" the new MO. Yes, while new MO I think are stronger than the "old ones", the changes aren't in true really hard and the sectorial continues to struggle with same issues than before. At least now we have other profiles which fight against tikbalang for a "spot" in the list. :)
Agree that the Knights themselves take a backseat. New additions almost exclusively divert attention away from the Knights or enhance the outlier HIs further than address the cohesion problems. We have 11 point Linetroops and 19 point baseline HI to make use of our 15 slots. A small TAG and a mini pseudo TAG to serve as pointman gunner. About as many midfield choices as all Nomad Sectorials combined (which is a bit of a weird direction to go for). A coward Lt and a Warband Lt. None of that is "MO" for me. The previous installations of MO are still in the Sectorial's DNA but, but it's just kind of there and wasn't touched much. It's pretty much entirely outdated next to all the shiny new things We got a random MI Doctor in N3 that has perfect anti synergy with PH14 cubeless Magisters, who could link just fine with an OS Paramedic if that Profile wouldn't have gotten axed. 15 for a barebones LI Paramedic was already on the steep side of pricing. the Crusader has been left to rot in N3 and continues to do so in N4 same for the Blackfriar MSR Santiago's would have loved if Teutons+Magisters would not have gotten their AVA sliced down to 3, especially since new Teutons, unlike Tankos, old Magisters and old Teutons, can fill all roles in a Link. AVA3 seems like an arbitrary bad call. Knight Commander can't link with HI or provide support for a HI Lt. The guy should really have had a COC Profile option and Wildcard to actually hide anywhere in MO. Seraph is left completely sidelined by the beautifully broken Montesa Tik the Montesa Tik is an abomination and I love it, but nontheless it's really just too good Can't remember the last time I put a Hospitaler on the table, they're my go to Orc proxies instead. Which isn't the Hospitaler's fault, they just never were given an opportunity to recover from losing Magisters as link fillers. The only and most exiting thing that changed about them is the FD 8" BSG Profile with D-Charges - nice but... why?
I agree. This is the route that they’ve chosen with sectorial design though, and MO is still a pano sectorial at heart. Without smoke, eclipse, or white noise, linked hmgs are consistently a significant tool. At the same time, JSA has a lot of tools that MO does, including smoke to help them get into close combat. But MO didn’t get any tools to get them up close and personal. There are a few knight profiles that can do well in close combat, but none of them are adept at getting there. They just got saddled with short ranged guns but are still part of panoceania.
The irony here, of course, is that the faction that relies on overwhelming firepower is missing a key staple of overwhelming firepower. I agree with the point others have voiced... MO = JSA doesn't apply, because JSA has a lot of the CC utility staples (smoke, Camo) that MO doesn't. The reason Yojimbo was created was to serve as JSA's impetuous, efficient, mobile, one-man smoke dispenser. Certainly his ability to do other things has risen and fallen depending on the edition, but he was created to put smoke on the field. MO doesn't have a counterpart there. One issue that MO consistently has is that the internal balance has never been perfectly tuned. There's always been a few viable lists for them from edition to edition, but when you have a Sectorial whose design space is so narrow, and whose overall concept is heavily constrained, you seem to end up with 2-3 indispensable units that utterly dominate listbuilding. Santiago KHD. Magisters (now Teutons.) These are so critical to the basic viability of the Sectorial, they have a tendency to leave everything else behind. I feel like if MO had received something like AVA3 Fugazi, it would have allowed more departure from the 11-point linetroopers, 19-point HI staples of N4 MO. Maybe someone would actually reach for a Hospitaller Haris, because you can get enough cheap Orders to justify such a choice. As it is right now though, by the time I'm finished buying the MO list choices that I view as "mandatory", I don't really have enough room left to be creative. I like a lot of what's going on with MO. But, once again, they definitely feel trapped by their own mandatory picks.
Maybe see it like this: this arms race of over-optimized profiles and link options has to stop somewhere. I agree that MO was never top-notch but it is and was very playable. Maybe the options are restricted but you have lots of other PanO sectorials if you become bored, some even with knights. I as a nomads player say that the Corregidor update was a mistake and must not be the norm for new sectorial updates. Otherwise we rush from update to update to become top of the line again while spreading toxicity against other factions in the forums. When did it become the norm that a faction is only playable when having access to a HI HMG + Cheerleader link team and always reach 15 Orders?
Not necessarily that specific type of link, but factions are very much gear checked when making lists by insanely strong ARO options a couple of factions possess now that unless dealt with will utterly retard your movement or board control. Either you built an answer for it into your list, or you're pretty much fucked. You might recognise one of those ARO pieces being a Nomad player. Pan-O and Yu Jing are two factions that don't have access to eclipse or white noise, so being unable to bypass these ARO units they have to man up and fight them, which generally means wildcard HMG pointman for a sectorial.
Certainly fire superiority can be sustained by a fireteam, but I don't consider that be the only way. With so many troops with visors, I think having some "brute force" is relevant. MO has several options for this as has been said: Tikabalang of Montesa and Knight of Holy Sepulcher are powerful options (not “meh” at all for me), also a haris of teutons, in others... I don't know why the Holoprojector is so discredited, although it is not mimetism, it gives good options anyway, such as a surprise shot, the possibility of activating mines, bluffing, etc. Although the core of Hospitaller + magisters will not return, a link from Santiago Lieutenant + 3 Teutons + X, where X can be another Santiago, KoJ, OS or even an infirmarer, doesn’t seem like a bad option to me. You sacrifice the HMG but you can win up to 3 specialists, a NCO, 2 spitfires and a firewall for 140 pts (cheaper than N3 hosp + magister core). I think after this upgrade, we see the more flexible version of MO since N3. You have access to a lot of powerful advanced deployment: Trinitarians, Dart, Mendoza, pacemakers plus options of an excellent paratrooper like the Santiago KHD, I don't see many problems to take care of an enemy fireteam core, where there could be superiority of fire. you have good amount of visors, and excellent TO and camo troops. I don’t understand what is the "concept of MO" a “knight orientation” or “MO DNA”. From N4 to the MO upgrade, we have seen the best specialization of the different types of knights in terms of weapons, roles and profiles, I think it is excellent, and also have better support troops. I dislike the marginalization of hospitaller kinghts in the army due to high competition with crossiers + wildcards or Teutons links (haris and core), I think they are more useful in SWF than in MO now. Finally, in all armies there are always profiles that are left aside or are not used, that is a shame, but for me it seems more important to concentrate on what works and at least I don’t see MO limited to 2 or 3 lists. I think MO can give much more today than what they gave the last 3 years.
The problem with the concept of "we must stop and tone it back down somewhere" is that that stopping point will obviously feel gimped compared to the arms race that came before, then the stopping point and any who come after will continue to feel that way until the members of the arm race get updated again and toned down to a lower level. Which at the pace it has been. We will see it in n5
I believe mixed fireteams are an important evolution for the game, Infinity is not after all a squad based game so organizing army lists in squad formations of same troops restricts the player in unit selection and tactical options, wildcards and "can join" troops allow for more flexibility. I also love the inclusion of REMs in the link teams, a team with a remote feels right for the setting.
No one says that mixed fireteams have to go entirely. Just the gap between fireteam members should be adjusted more carefully. Apart from internal balancing issues, no super veteran spec ops team would go behind enemy lines with some dudes which are fresh from the academy. Remotes as support for teams feel indeed very fitting for the theme.
It's a solid point, and I agree at the conceptual level. However CB have done a pretty rubbish job executing the concept lately; they've got an annoying habit of allowing top-quality, generally useful profiles into cheap links, which actually constrains list building even further- who's taking a Bagh Mari Core (and thus nearly every BM profile without an SWC gun) when they can put the same gun quality and Specialist choices in Regulars for half the price? It really kills the tradeoffs in opportunity cost that linked play used to bring. It also means that an increasing number of units are being designed only for mixed link usage, with AVA restrictions and reduced profile options directly forcing the issue instead of creating choice. Just look at MO, you can barely form a link of any kind with only Teutons despite them being Core-capable, even though a lot of players would clearly like to do so. It's also made Characters and their nearly-always-Wildcard toolbox kits almost indespensible to most Sectorials, something I'm not keen on. Lastly, the very high level of power creep in link capability has made them increasingly integral to list composition, despite Infinity being, at its core, not a squad-based game. This forces players to either engage with the mechanic to maintain competitive viability or ignore over three-quarters of the game's factions. A Fireteam: Core (always a DZ-bound blob of models that are banned from using many of Infinity's most tactically interesting skills) now takes up a full third of almost every list ever fielded, further reducing options for consideration. The end result is obvious and inflexible links guiding listbuilding in general, leading to this situation where the game feels solved despite the edition being so fresh. Fortunately, a lot of these issues can potentially be solved by the N4 Fireteam rules when they release, so I hope CB puts some effort into them. I'm almost always impressed with Infinity's rules, clarity notwithstanding, so I've got hope there. Mixed links also make collecting an army easier, and when well-executed they do create a lot of options so I don't want to see them go. As usual for this edition, I'm really just asking whoever does the army design to exercise restraint and moderation.
I agree completely, and I'd really like to see more of it in PanO. Integration of remotes with live troopers seems like a thing a hi-tech army would do. And I'm not talking mainly about combat REMs like Bulleteer, Fugazi or Pathfinder being able to join standard fireteams would give us some flexibility, while balancing it with built-in vulnerabilities of their own.
