It’s been really weird reading this as our local Shasvastii player swears by Jayth and says they’re amazing.
[here was a message... I missed discussion and post it here. I hope you are understand. I know, you are beautiful people.]
well, YMMV, there might be a lot of reasons why he had positive experience with them. Like, are local players competitive, are they experienced players, will they let him get away with cutting corners (like if you're getting jayths then at least 25pts are not spent on something else), what kind of armies do you play and if tables are terrain-heavy.
One of the more competitive and experienced corners of the U.K. meta. Definitely not facing slouches! There’s a wide range of lists, with a tendency towards aggressive alpha strikes, and pretty dense tables.
This I think may be the key part. I can see Jayth being decent if you can get them where they need to go....up close. I think a lot of peoples issue beyond the cost is being able to get them up the board in one piece. I will note I am just going off others comments as I have yet to try them myself.
I took the Red Fury Jayth for a run out last night for a game of Countermeasures. The Red Fury ended up being pointless but otherwise the profile did some good work. He successfully engaged and killed Duroc in CC. The NBW proved useful here as it encouraged my opponent to attack the Gwailo he was already engaged with rather than the Jayth. He then managed to achieve 2 objectives by having MSV and also being a Veteran troop. All very circumstantial I grant you as the correct objectives etc came up for it but still in the right place they seem decent troops. My biggest issue is that for the same cost I can have the Spitfire/MSV1 Caliban and 9 times out of 10 that will be the better pick I reckon. I actually had the Caliban in first and replaced it with the Jayth just to try it out.
I think the Jayths are fantastic. -6 mimetism and criting on a 14 is it. get a little buddy to tag a long as well, or are we talking Vanilla only here. Great miniatures, overall I'm a big fan! The kind of guy you nonchalantly position into mid field.
Getting Jayths up the field would be more problematic in N2 SEF, but since N3 rework we have no shortage of decent long range firepower to deal with ARO troopers. And while I look at Calibans first when I want to beef up my midfield presence, Jayths are very good at stacking mods, and, unlike Calibans, they can bring in a fireteam to help them in CC. Achieving the same with our camo units would require some careful coordination.
Disclaimer: I want to run them because I love there models BUT I have not yet. Mimitism -6 is not that great of a defense with all the msv people can put into core links now. If you are trying to fight individuals then it can help, but a lot of links will lesser or ignore it. If anything they have been undone by this design decision even before they hit the table. Further more even putting Victor Messer in there to off set it is not viable because Cutthroats have msv, you to blind the enemy msv with white noise you will blind your own msv.
I think if they got kinda screwed as far as weapons go in comparison to other MSV+Mimetisim troops. Sure most of the others are only -3 but they also have Multi Rifles, Feuerbachs, AP spitfires. I'd be much happier with a plain combi over the chain rifles, SMG, Grenades. I like this haris but it's so expensive! JAYTH CUTTHROATS Red Fury, E/M Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1 | 38) SARGOSH MULTI Rifle, Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 37) VICTOR MESSER (Hacker, Hacking Device Plus) MULTI Rifle, Cybermines, Nanopulser(+1B), D-Charges ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 33) 1.5 SWC | 108 Points Open in Infinity Army
FWIW: Jayth are CC specialists, so them being blind is no worse than someone without MSV throwing smoke to chew up someone else in CC (like Datz do). WN is more limited in application, for sure... and that doesn't address the primary point of the thread: Jayths cost too much for what you would use them for.
I have no issue with blinding my own guys if it later gets them past the enemy into better position. Also, I think it would be VM doing the shooting. Hasht is also a good replacement for Sargosh in that situation too.
If the plan is to make a Haris of one Jayth and two wildcards, it tells me that Jayth themselves might have some unit design issues.
Does the Kamau have unit design issues? (I mean, yes, it does. But assuming that it’s bad because you’re utilising wildcards as designed seems off to me.)
In this case the kamau is the wildcard (assuming you mean a single kamau in a fusilier team). I take your point, but it’s not a particularly parallel scenario. And the existence of the kamau sniper as an option in the same fireteam definitely devalues the fusilier sniper. My point was more that a haris of Hasht, Messer, and something is really more focused on the two characters than it is on the third model.
I've used them in three games so far and don't HATE them. The Red Fury in a Haris is pretty menacing and they have tools to accomplish a lot of tasks, especially if you wildcard Victor or Dukash. E/M grenades are excellent on PH13 profile, especially in objective room missions. However, I agree they need a rework. Suggestions these could be AND OR: 3-5pt decrease - When you price up the RF compared to the Caliban I don't see how the math works FD+4" - not game breaking but would get them out of their dz and goes with the fluff FD+8" on the Taigha profile - this would be excellent and interesting. It can be supported by the various camo markers in shas and the Taigha would be a great tool at turn 1 mine clearing/camo baiting. In this instance I would support the mines remaining on the Taigha profile. Dogged/NWI - NWI would be fine since they don't have shock immunity, but even dogged would be helpful. NWI on Sargosh - he's a fucking beast and his profile should reflect this more Parachutist - big fan of this suggestion, even if it's just on one of the SMG profiles and would offer even more deployment options for Shas outside of the lacklustre Cadmus 6-2 move - this feels like a sensible suggestion and would really benefit the RF haris +3 ARM - the chonky bois deserve some protection, though I assume this would mess with the points math considerably so an alternate idea would be reduce the BTS to 3 and give them all bioimmunity? Please CB, I want to run these models more often!
It's the E/M grenades, high BTS 6, and DA CCW that are bloating him most likely. That accounts for about 5pts worth of shit you won't use that much. The Jayths are costed correctly more than likely. When you pull MSV1, E/M mines, and Grenades and the +1B Chain Rifle they come out to 19-20 points. When you compare their statline to the 16pt Chain Rifle Myrmidons and take into account the Myrms are running with a Frenzy points discount, they look more or less accurately costed. That doesn't mean they're well costed though. They're pretty bloated with alot of weird shit several profiles don't really want like the MSV1 on the Chain Rifle profile. That alone is 3pts you could knock off the profile.
